View Poll Results: Karajan - Hero or Hype?

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  • Hero

    50 64.94%
  • Hype

    27 35.06%
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Thread: Karajan - Hero or Hype?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by StlukesguildOhio View Post
    After winning second prize in the International Herbert von Karajan Conducting Competition in Berlin (1971), he became an assistant conductor to Karajan.

    From Naxos biography of Antoni Wit.
    IIRC for '71, the late Russian A. Jordiana was 1st, and Jansons 3rd.

    FWIW Gergiev finished 1st in '76.

  2. #107
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    Some conductors who studied under von Karajan have worked in Australia. Eg. Muhai Tang and Imre Pallo. They obviously learnt from him what they did, and from others (the six degrees of separation thing in the local and global music industry, etc.), musicians have a lot to offer eachother. They learn from eachother & in my earlier posts, I did admit von Karajan did have a educator and mentor role like this, as many of them did & do still. Eg. Bernstein teaching Marin Alsop has had big impact on her, she's become a custodian of his music in some ways.

    Maybe I was harsh on von Karajan for not supporting new/newer musics. Some others like Carlo Maria Giulini didn't do that much either. My bias is that I dislike von Karajan's style, outside music of 19th century, R. Strauss and vocal or stage music (opera, operetta). To be objective, I did check sources, a friend's book on von Karajan. He did conduct a fair deal of pieces under 10 years old, or under 20 years old, at the time of performing them live or recording them. But no premieres as far as I can gather from that source.

    It is conceded that his legacy with the Salzburg Festival was mixed. Before 1945, before the Nazis shut it down, it was a new music festival, largely. After that, von Karajan focussed it on Mozart, some other wigs and R. Strauss. Since the end of von Karajan's tenure in late 1980's, the new directors there have been trying to turn around his legacy, eg. that it's seen as "old hat." They are trying to modernise the festival to be relevant again, as it was between the two world wars...
    Last edited by Sid James; Jan-07-2012 at 03:48.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid James View Post
    ....It is conceded that his legacy with the Salzburg Festival was mixed. Before 1945, before the Nazis shut it down, it was a new music festival, largely. After that, von Karajan focussed it on Mozart, some other wigs and R. Strauss. Since the end of von Karajan's tenure in late 1980's, the new directors there have been trying to turn around his legacy, eg. that it's seen as "old hat." They are trying to modernise the festival to be relevant again, as it was between the two world wars...
    Sid, there's quite a bit of Saltzburg Festival programming history available online. I haven't investigated it fully, choosing to glance at the postwar years to about 1960. HvK took over in 1957, after being shut-out for the most part by Furtwangler, then when he died, having to battle with Bohm for control. From what I saw regarding opera (unfortunately, I haven't found other genre detailed), with the exception of HvK's Don Giovanni, Bohm seemed to be the big Mozart guy at Salzburg during this period.

    Each year, including '57 to '60, I saw something progressive programmed, so to say HvK prevented such things is not fact. Anyway, I invite you to view what they offer at the Salzburg Festival website. What they have there has made interesting reading so far, for me.

    There probably hasn't been enough "newness" to suit you or I, but it is there.

    http://www.salzburgerfestspiele.at/history/1960

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  5. #109
    Senior Member HarpsichordConcerto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid James View Post
    Maybe I was harsh on von Karajan for not supporting new/newer musics. Some others like Carlo Maria Giulini didn't do that much either. My bias is that I dislike von Karajan's style, outside music of 19th century, R. Strauss and vocal or stage music (opera, operetta)....
    HvK didn't conduct much Handel or Telemann or Monteverdi either. Am I going to go around hating Karajan for not conducting The Messiah and L'Orfeo?

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarpsichordConcerto View Post
    HvK didn't conduct much Handel or Telemann or Monteverdi either. Am I going to go around hating Karajan for not conducting The Messiah and L'Orfeo?
    Good excuse--don't think that one's been used yet.

  7. #111
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    It seems to me that Salzburg has been always a place for intrigues. After the death of Karajan, there was some story, when they decided to invite both Solti and Abbado, but after some time decided that they need only one star - Abbado. Solti was upset that Abbado had not said it to him directly and honestly, but prefered to act as he didn't know what's the matter. :-)

  8. #112
    Senior Member Itullian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moody View Post
    Good excuse--don't think that one's been used yet.
    K was gonna record Messiah, but when Davis' came out he said it was good enough and declined.

  9. #113
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    I shudder think what the Messiah would sound like with the BPO if that is what was planned.

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  11. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andante View Post
    I shudder think what the Messiah would sound like with the BPO if that is what was planned.
    Awesome is all.

  12. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andante View Post
    I shudder think what the Messiah would sound like with the BPO if that is what was planned.
    He did do The Seasons, that's probably the closest thing. I haven't heard that Haydn account by von Karajan though, I can't comment on that. But my opinion of his rendition of Mozart's Great Mass in C is not good, as I've detailed earlier in this thread...

  13. #116
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    Re Messiah, perhaps HvK saw such an undertaking as a conflict of interest.

  14. #117
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    I have heard Messiah performed by very large orchestras and choirs and while it may suit some I prefer a small chamber orchestra and choir something in the style of Harry Christophers and The Sixteen, that sort of thing.

  15. #118
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    ^^It's really the spirit of the performance, for want of a better word, rather than the size that matters to me regarding things like The Messiah.

    There are six different versions of The Messiah. There was a colossal performance of it some decades after Handel's death at WEstminster Abbey. I think Haydn attended that and that inspired him to write his The Creation. So even back then, they had very large performances of it...

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  17. #119
    Senior Member (Ret) moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itullian View Post
    Awesome is all.
    Lousy is all!

  18. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by moody View Post
    Lousy is all!
    No loss, since it's a work I don't care to ever hear again.

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