Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Beethoven's Mass in C Major Op.86

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Beethoven's Mass in C Major Op.86

    My choir is singing Beethoven's Mass in C Major Op.86 for Easter. Is anyone here familiarized with this work? What do you think of it?

    Here is the Kyrie and Gloria:


  2. #2
    Senior Member jalex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    1,053
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think it is a very good work, a 'long-underrated masterpiece' as The Penguin Guide to CDs calls it. I like Gardiner's version.

  3. Likes Webernite, Allerius liked this post
  4. #3
    Senior Member itywltmt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Ottawa Canada
    Posts
    583
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    366

    Default

    I featured excerpts from this mass in a pair of posts here and on Blogspot - the Gloria andSanctus/Benedictus were created at the mammoth academy concert Beethoven held in 1808:
    http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/i...rt-der-22.html

    I agree it is underrated and somewhat overshadowed by the Missa Solemnis.

  5. #4
    Senior Member SixFootScowl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    14,318
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Here is an interesting download of Mass in C from a Catholic Church in Minnesota:
    http://www.stagnes.net/music-recordi...beethoven.html
    It is interspersed with Gregoran chant tracks and has an added prelude and recessional, but the Mass in C is all there, just pick out the appropriate tracks.

  6. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    14,968
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I can't believe I've been ignoring this piece. I went out Monday and fixed the problem; I now have Gardiner's version.

    So far, I'm really connecting with this piece. He's brought together elements of the old liturgical style with the current sonata form of his time, yet retaining his individuality.

    Thanks for introducing me to this, JCNog!

  7. #6
    Senior Member Morgante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Sardegna
    Posts
    142
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    One of the best masses ever.

  8. Likes Allerius liked this post
  9. #7
    Senior Member SixFootScowl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    14,318
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    It is so good that nobody has posted since 2012 ?????

    But seriously folks, this is a worthy work, please post some favorite recordings so I can be enticed to spend more money buying more CDs that I don't need but do want.

    At least for now I can chase the Gardiner suggestion someone made in an earlier post.
    Last edited by SixFootScowl; Feb-22-2021 at 20:14.
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

  10. Likes Allerius liked this post
  11. #8
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sharon, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,116
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SixFootScowl View Post
    It is so good that nobody has posted since 2012 ?????

    But seriously folks, this is a worthy work, please post some favorite recordings so I can be enticed to spend more money buying more CDs that I don't need but do want.

    At least for now I can chase the Gardiner suggestion someone made in an earlier post.
    I listened to a bunch of these when my choir was scheduled to perform it (postponed due to COVID, alas). The Gardiner is an excellent choice. Two others that are worth hearing are Best (Hyperion) and Hickox (Chandos). I was less enthused about Shaw, Chailly, Giulini, Davis, Richter, Corboz, and Beecham.

  12. Likes SixFootScowl, Allerius liked this post
  13. #9
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    A promising work, but not a very mature one. He had just finished his contrapuntal studies with Albrechtberger a few years earlier. One of the concluding fugues (either from the gloria or credo, I can't remember exactly) just has passages of lines continuously going up and down like
    ↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘
    ↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗↘↗
    I still respect the opinions of people who find the work enjoyable though.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Feb-23-2021 at 06:12.

  14. #10
    Senior Member Knorf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    2,548
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    A promising work, but not a very mature one. He had just finished his contrapuntal studies with Albrechtberger a few years earlier.
    This is incorrect.

    Beethoven's Mass in C major, Op. 86 was composed and premiered in 1807 as a response to a commission from Prince Nikolaus Esterházy II, and after Beethoven had studied Haydn's Masses exhaustively on his own.

    Furthermore, it is an excellent and indeed highly underrated work, unfairly overshadowed by the admittedly vastly more ambitious Missa Solemnis. Its smaller scale should not be held as a point against it, in my opinion.

    A recentish recording of this mass I like very much is with Jansons/Bavarian Radio.

    Last edited by Knorf; Feb-23-2021 at 01:06. Reason: Added album pic, minor edits

  15. Likes starthrower, wkasimer, SixFootScowl and 3 others liked this post
  16. #11
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY USA
    Posts
    13,135
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I just dialed up the Jansons video on YT. First time listening to this piece.
    “Music makes you feel feelings. Words make you think thoughts. But a song can make you feel a thought.”

    - Yip Harburg

  17. Likes Knorf liked this post
  18. #12
    Senior Member Rogerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    On the border.
    Posts
    44,522
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    There are several fine disc out there , perhaps the fact that it's not in the religious section is to blame for almost no posts.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

  19. Likes SixFootScowl liked this post
  20. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    237
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I personally feel that any big middle-period Beethoven work is so many-sided that I want to hear a diversity of approaches. Four favorites here, chosen to contrast as radically as possible:

    1. For sheer theatricality one can't beat Gardiner. Clearly he regards it as a very exciting work but not a very great one; he doesn't find in it the kind of substance that might be expected in a work contemporary with the Razumovsky Quartets and the Fifth Symphony.* (I'm not complaining about his approach, merely trying to describe it as accurately as possible.)

    2. The exact antithesis is Giulini: he is as totally (one-sidedly?) reflective as Gardiner is theatrical. Everything is slow, sensitive, reverential, reverent. Very similar, in fact, to his famous recording of the Missa Solemnis: anyone who likes or dislikes that performance would be likely to respond the same way to this one.

    3. Then there's Beecham. Beecham obviously cherished this work for an idiosyncratic reason: it's the most Haydnesque of Beethoven's major works, and Beecham frankly preferred Haydn to Beethoven. So, one's attitude to this recording is likely to depend on one's attitude to Beecham's Haydn. (And on one's tolerance for 1950s fuzzily recorded choral sound.)

    4. Among recent recordings that I've heard, I've enjoyed Jansons most (on DVD--is the CD the same performance?). I'm not sure that Jansons had as much innate talent as either Gardiner or Giulini or Beecham, but he gives me the impression that he really loved & admired this work, treating it as though it truly is a perfectly standard middle-period Beethoven masterpiece. Of the various recordings known to me, this may be the none that offers most of the kind of constantly shifting interplay one customarily hears in Beethoven's symphonies & quartets--light & shade, tragedy & triumph, conflict & conquest intertwined. On the other hand, it doesn't offer (or even attempt) the singleminded intensity of Gardiner & Giulini (in their very different ways).

    Did Bernstein ever perform this Mass? He might have done it particularly well; he was at home in both Haydn and Beethoven.

    * Chronological position:

    Symphony No. 3, “Eroica” (Op. 55; 1803)
    Piano Sonata No. 21, “Waldstein” (Op. 53; 1804)
    Piano Sonata No. 23, “Appassionata” (Op. 57; 1805)
    Leonore/Fidelio, first two versions (Op. 72; 1805–1806)
    Symphony No. 4 (Op. 60; 1806)
    Violin Concerto (Op. 61; 1806)
    String Quartets Nos. 7–9, “Razumovsky” (Op. 59, Nos. 1–3; 1806)
    Piano Concerto No. 4 (Op. 58; 1807)
    Coriolan Overture (Op. 62; 1807)
    Mass in C Major (Op. 86; 1807)
    Symphony No. 5 (Op. 67; 1808)
    Symphony No. 6, “Pastoral” (Op. 68; 1808)

    AFTERTHOUGHT

    Does anyone have Segerstam (on Naxos)? I imagine the Mass might suit his style well, but on listening to samples, I was rather doubtful about the quality of the chorus, so I've been hesitant to buy it.
    Last edited by gvn; Feb-23-2021 at 09:59.

  21. Likes Allerius liked this post
  22. #14
    Senior Member Caroline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Posts
    262
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    I listened to a bunch of these when my choir was scheduled to perform it (postponed due to COVID, alas). The Gardiner is an excellent choice. Two others that are worth hearing are Best (Hyperion)
    Shared thoughts - Gardiner and Best on Hyperion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorf View Post
    This is incorrect.

    ...Beethoven had studied Haydn's Masses exhaustively on his own.

    ...Its smaller scale should not be held as a point against it, in my opinion.

    A recentish recording of this mass I like very much is with Jansons/Bavarian Radio.

    Important points here and good to see another suggestion for Jansons/Bavarian Radio and will pursue myself next for this ostensibly under appreciated work.
    Last edited by Caroline; Feb-23-2021 at 14:43.

    “Whoever tells a lie is not pure of heart, and such a person can not cook a clean soup.” - Beethoven

  23. Likes SixFootScowl, Allerius, Knorf liked this post
  24. #15
    Senior Member SixFootScowl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    14,318
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    I listened to a bunch of these when my choir was scheduled to perform it (postponed due to COVID, alas). The Gardiner is an excellent choice. Two others that are worth hearing are Best (Hyperion) and Hickox (Chandos). I was less enthused about Shaw, Chailly, Giulini, Davis, Richter, Corboz, and Beecham.

    On a cursory review of clips, the Hickox seemed pretty nice. I can get Gardiner for $4.25 as a download though.
    Last edited by SixFootScowl; Feb-24-2021 at 00:19.
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bernstein - MASS
    By maestro267 in forum Vocal Music
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Feb-15-2018, 13:59
  2. Beethoven's Symphony in D major, Op. 36 - Allegro molto
    By classicalmusicfan in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Jul-23-2009, 08:14
  3. Help with a mass/requim
    By goko in forum Solved Cases (archive)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: May-08-2009, 22:34
  4. Greetings from Amherst, Mass.
    By XenakisEarbleed in forum New Members - Introductions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Mar-02-2009, 05:36

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •