Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 41011121314
Results 196 to 210 of 210

Thread: Pierre Boulez

  1. #196
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Richard Barrett said this about Boulez, and I must say the more experience I have listening to music the more I think that he was on to something true



    He created around himself a mythology of radical avant-gardism without ever really putting it into practice in his own work, at least after his early years.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Jul-11-2019 at 06:23.

  2. Likes Larkenfield liked this post
  3. #197
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sedona
    Posts
    3,678
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    .................
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jul-11-2019 at 08:02.
    "That's all Folks!"

  4. #198
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    the Deep South
    Posts
    2,104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Richard Barrett said this about Boulez, and I must say the more experience I have listening to music the more I think that he was on to something true
    Very interesting. If his later music would have embraced the "radical avant-gardism" that we all associate with his personality (at least of his youth), what might it have sounded like? Some of his music, like Répons, despite its experimental origins, is kind of easy going. It lacks the hardcore harmonic abrasiveness that we see in works like the piano sonatas, etc. I think this works in his favor IMO. His music is really a lot more accessible than people realize. I played some of Répons for my girlfriend yesterday and she enjoyed it, and her favorite composers are Chopin and Debussy. His music is really not terribly far removed from the latter.

    Pli selon Pli is a towering masterpiece. Definitely a big achievement of the century! Why is it not more widely performed, I wonder? Too difficult?



    This is another interesting work.
    Last edited by flamencosketches; Jul-11-2019 at 11:04.

  5. #199
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    I’ve just bought a book on Mallarmé, it’s always been at the back of my mind to try to make sense of what he was doing in the later poems, and now’s as good a time as any.

    As far as I know the complete Pli selon Pli has only ever been recorded by Boulez. I think the work was very controversial at first - the avant garde thought it was a sellout because it was so sensual, the reactionaries thought it was a radical threat to values because it was so spiky. Maybe there’s still a widespread distrust of the music.

    The connection to literature as impenetrable as Un coup de dés jamais n’abolira le hasard doesn’t help it gain acceptability, my impression is that the musical establishment is very wary of musicians with ideas.

    If you want I can let you have the first performance of Pli selon Pli, in 1964.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    The things I remember enjoying most recently were Messagesquisse, and Mémoriale and Dérive 1 on this CD




    Attachment 121214

    Anyone know why it’s called mémoriale and not mémorial?
    I don’t know why I said this, Dérive II is very good too!
    Last edited by Mandryka; Jul-11-2019 at 12:03.

  6. #200
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    925
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    The things I remember enjoying most recently were Messagesquisse, and Mémoriale and Dérive 1 on this CD

    Attachment 121214

    Anyone know why it’s called mémoriale and not mémorial?
    That disc is fantastic!

  7. #201
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    925
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    In most classical music, orchestration is often there to clothe the polyphony. In Boulez, the orchestration is the polyphony.

    Unlike most classical music, the form in Boulez isn't a sequence of ideas interrelated by a scheme. The form is like a proliferation of important instants related to each other by a sort of poetic inevitability.

    Although he may owe these ideas to Debussy -- it was reading Barraque on Debussy which made me think of Boulez in fact -- I would say that he's a more successful composer than Debussy.


    For me Boulez much more than Debussy represents a hope for true music. I know that, by his culture, his training, his origins, his interests, Boulez admired and maybe enjoyed the music of the past. But I think in his best music he transcended this aspect of character. He felt the uneasiness of the times he lived in, our times. The chiaroscuro of his music is like a light glimpsed at the end of the tunnel, a hope that the fear may end.
    That is an interesting way to describe it. After listening to Derive I and Derive II for the first time I started thinking of Boulez' music as a series of gestures.

  8. Likes millionrainbows liked this post
  9. #202
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Scarpia View Post
    That is an interesting way to describe it. After listening to Derive I and Derive II for the first time I started thinking of Boulez' music as a series of gestures.
    By Jove, I think you've got it! I think of Messiaen that way, too.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  10. #203
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    the Deep South
    Posts
    2,104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, you've lost me, but I'm a neophyte to this music. Gestures?

  11. #204
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Here's a configuration of gestures

    hasard.jpg

  12. #205
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    the Deep South
    Posts
    2,104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Here's a configuration of gestures

    hasard.jpg
    That definitely looks like Boulez's music sounds. And some of Messiaen's for that matter (Catalogue d'oiseaux).

  13. #206
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    925
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Well, you've lost me, but I'm a neophyte to this music. Gestures?
    Brief unfolding of music, a pause, another brief unfolding of music, related but distinct, another brief unfolding of music, etc. My description won't make sense unless you listen to it, and then it still may not make sense to you.
    Last edited by Baron Scarpia; Jul-11-2019 at 23:10.

  14. #207
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    the Deep South
    Posts
    2,104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Scarpia View Post
    Brief unfolding of music, a pause, another brief unfolding of music, related but distinct, another brief unfolding of music, etc. My description won't make sense unless you listen to it, and then it still may not make sense to you.
    Nope, makes perfect sense. That is indeed what his music sounds like to my ears. I was just unfamiliar with the term "gestures" in a musical sense.

    I listened to Le Marteau sans Maître on my drive to and from work. Really good work. Clearly, it's Boulez's take on Pierrot Lunaire? It almost strikes me as a full on tribute work, but of course he brings a lot of individuality to the table. I need to get it on CD.
    Last edited by flamencosketches; Jul-11-2019 at 23:19.

  15. #208
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Music gradually divorced itself from drama over several centuries. Look at the rise of instrumental forms: the symphony, the concerto, tone poems, etc.

    In instrumental Romanticism, although it was music divorced from drama, still had residual traces of drama, expressed as "dramatic gestures."

    This "splitting" of drama from music opened-up a new can of worms, giving us the whole range of the non-specific "feelings" evoked by music, which are by their very "non-narrative nature" fleeting, transitory, and ephemeral, unclear, evocative, vague, and indefinable (meaning non-narrative).

    Still, this is not a requirement for music to be expressive of emotion or states of being. To take matters even further into the fog, when we get into more modern music, I think "emotion" as a descriptive term begins to fail us. For example, in Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra, the "emotional gestures" expressed are so complex that we begin to experience them as "states of being," like anxiety, foreboding, fear, tension, awe, etc., creating in our minds, empathetically, a reflection of our own, and the artist's, "inner state of being."

    Concerning modernism, it's true that in many instances the "evoking" of dramatic emotion, and dramatic gesture is absent (but certainly not always). Stockhausen evokes, for me, a sort of "Platonic classicism" in his Klavierstücke; with modernism, we must put aside our need for drama and overt emotion, and listen on the level of "pure abstraction," an enjoyment of color, sound, and timbre itself. In this sense, modern music is not "modern" at all; music has always been "abstract expressionism" when divorced from drama and opera.

    So, in a sense, this is an "internal narrative" we share with the composer, but indefinable in literal narrative terms, because these are transitory, fleeting states by nature; simply "gestures of meanings."

    https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1069-instrumental-music-dramatic-gesture.html
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jul-12-2019 at 14:15.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  16. #209
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    the Deep South
    Posts
    2,104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ^Well said, my friend. I think you're on to something.

    I don't know what the Mallarmé poems that are set in Pli Selon Pli are about, but somehow I suspect that the piece not entirely divorced from drama. It is just so massive, such an epic journey...

    Such a genius composer... the greatest composer/conductor since Mahler. (Sorry, Lenny).



    Was this^ the first recording of Le Marteau without Boulez at the helm, as the album title appears to indicate? I like what I heard.

  17. #210
    Senior Member Bourdon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Music gradually divorced itself from drama over several centuries. Look at the rise of instrumental forms: the symphony, the concerto, tone poems, etc.

    In instrumental Romanticism, although it was music divorced from drama, still had residual traces of drama, expressed as "dramatic gestures."

    This "splitting" of drama from music opened-up a new can of worms, giving us the whole range of the non-specific "feelings" evoked by music, which are by their very "non-narrative nature" fleeting, transitory, and ephemeral, unclear, evocative, vague, and indefinable (meaning non-narrative).

    Still, this is not a requirement for music to be expressive of emotion or states of being. To take matters even further into the fog, when we get into more modern music, I think "emotion" as a descriptive term begins to fail us. For example, in Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra, the "emotional gestures" expressed are so complex that we begin to experience them as "states of being," like anxiety, foreboding, fear, tension, awe, etc., creating in our minds, empathetically, a reflection of our own, and the artist's, "inner state of being."

    Concerning modernism, it's true that in many instances the "evoking" of dramatic emotion, and dramatic gesture is absent (but certainly not always). Stockhausen evokes, for me, a sort of "Platonic classicism" in his Klavierstücke; with modernism, we must put aside our need for drama and overt emotion, and listen on the level of "pure abstraction," an enjoyment of color, sound, and timbre itself. In this sense, modern music is not "modern" at all; music has always been "abstract expressionism" when divorced from drama and opera.

    So, in a sense, this is an "internal narrative" we share with the composer, but indefinable in literal narrative terms, because these are transitory, fleeting states by nature; simply "gestures of meanings."

    https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1069-instrumental-music-dramatic-gesture.html
    Internal narrative,I like that,but that is what music is all about.

Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 41011121314

Similar Threads

  1. Boulez composing "Godot"?
    By World Violist in forum Opera
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: Jan-06-2016, 17:48
  2. Varèse by Boulez
    By Ukko in forum Recorded Music and Publications
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Apr-30-2012, 16:45
  3. Wagner on DVD: Boulez vs. Levine?
    By GrosseFugue in forum Recorded Music and Publications
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Mar-30-2012, 15:08

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •