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Thread: My Symphony Three

  1. #121
    Senior Member juergen's Avatar
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    Hmm, I must say that I also don't understand exactly what makes these symphonies "gnostic". Maybe you want to explain a bit, Billy? Also the mesmerizing character of some of your earlier works (for example #23) is not so present here. Maybe you need a little break to refresh your creative power?

  2. #122
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    Fellow TalkClassicalians. I really can't believe this thread has reached 9 pages! Can't you all see you have played straight into this Trolls hands? All he wants is ATTENTION. And you're giving it to him in droves. He attempted trolling another classical chat forum, but people there were sensible enough to completely ignore him and his posts have now been removed by the moderators who saw 'Billy' for what he is - a spammer, a Troll. I urge the moderators here to do the same and I urge everyone else to make this post of mine the last one that Billy will attract.

    Or perhaps you like being trolled?

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  4. #123
    Senior Member juergen's Avatar
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    What I can see is that Billy has 73 posts now over a period of almost one year. Can't see any spam.

  5. #124
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    Billy,

    When I listen to your music I can hear that there are recurring elements which demonstrate your ability, contrary to what some others have said. Where your music is lacking (IMO) is the following:

    Rhythmic variation. I hear little change in key signature and timing.
    Harmonic variation. The harmonies used never seem to explore 9th, 11th or 13th chords, or subtle chromatic progressions.
    Modulation. I hear little change in key overall.
    Development of existing material. You have a tendency to introduce new ideas all the time.
    Form. There is nothing wrong with music that lacks shape, but form is more important in larger works. A book on melodic organisation might help.
    Lack of dynamics. Most everything is played at the same volume, with little contrast through soft and loud moments.
    Orchestration. Your choice of instruments is a little bland. Using the same textures/colours leads to tedium.

    The beginning of your #33 does seem to succeed more than your other compositions.

    If you want to progress, you must do more to maintain the listener's interest. I hope you ignore the insults which have been directed at you, but at the same time pay attention to those who have offered constructive criticism.

    Regards,
    Paul.
    Last edited by paulc; Aug-15-2012 at 18:15.

  6. #125
    Senior Member Ramako's Avatar
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    I agree Paul, I think Billy might have potential, which is why I've tried to avoid wholesale criticism, though I think he does need to work on his technique (not so much in a technical as methodological sense). In my opinion I think he needs to think about a) his own reaction to his music, which I think he does. Now he needs to think about others reaction to it, will other people like this? Will other people who hate me, like this? It is a good exercise if nothing else (I think it is much more, but anyway) to write (accessible) music for other people.

    And yes it is disturbing that this thread is so long.
    Last edited by Ramako; Aug-15-2012 at 18:58.

  7. #126
    Senior Member juergen's Avatar
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    Why is it disturbing that this thread is long? Are there any capacity limits in this forum? Or is it envy that this guy without a formal musical education gets so much attention?

    In my opinion this thread is exciting because it is not only a discussion about Billy's music but also a discussion about the worth of music itself (or at least it could be). When is music worth to be listened? Only when the composer has worked month on it? When he has studied the "theory", i.e. harmony rules, voice leading, orchestration? Merely applying the "theory" is not creativity. There is no other field where this saying has more validity than in music: Theory is called theory because it is the opposite of practice.

    Billy just found his way of working and I think it's ok. It's his way to express creativity. Some like what comes out, others don't.

    He hits random keys at the keyboard? Maybe. But it's interesting to see that this is called "hitting random keys" if somebody without musical education does it, and "Aleatoric", "Minimalism", "Fractal Music" or whatever if etablished composers do so.
    Last edited by juergen; Aug-15-2012 at 20:30.

  8. #127
    Senior Member beetzart's Avatar
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    Sorry to be flippant but that sounds like a primary school sports day where everyone get a medal, regardless. I would though like a bit more background from him, how he initially approached writing his music, preparation, inspiration, etc. Saying that I still wouldn't like it if an established composer wrote the same thing.
    I love Muzio Clementi's music.

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  10. #128
    Senior Member Ramako's Avatar
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    Juergen, I think Billy's style could go somewhere - once I understood the motivic stuff, I realised that. I just think there's something that needs to click with him.

    There is no art where theory is more important than music. There is no art more creative than music.

    However, theory is a(n often incorrect) codification of past ideas practically by definition. Some aspects of it obviously go further than this, and of course there is nothing intrinsically wrong with past ideas counter to what some people would say. However, while knowledge about parallel fifths etc. can be ignored, it is important to have so that you as a composer know what's going on. Regrettably, we are reaching a stage in music where there is so much theory (in 20th C particularly with many diverse strands of ideas) that it is impossible to know everything, or may be soon. I have my own ideas.

    I would quite like to converse with Billy a bit. However, I can understand that he may not want to speak because he will get pounced on and irrational argument will ensue. Beetzart I am not talking about you in pouncing btw.
    Last edited by Ramako; Aug-15-2012 at 21:31.

  11. #129
    Senior Member beetzart's Avatar
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    As a thought experiment, what if I set my piano up to my Sibelius software tomorrow and just let my 3 yr old son loose on it until he gets bored, then publish it on YT as his 1st sonata. Would it be worthless because he is only 3? He has no musical knowledge, yet sometimes listens to what I have playing on the PC, and asks what it is. He has had a go on the piano and likes to try the notes across the whole keyboard. He may play quick or slow, depends on how he feels I guess. As I say just a thought experiment, I won't be trying it.
    I love Muzio Clementi's music.

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  13. #130
    Senior Member Billy's Avatar
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    Thank you for you ongoing comments. I like this discussion.

    Juergen, I am a Gnostic and so I decided to start naming my symphonies "Gnostic" Symphony No. 1,2,3,4,5. That's why.
    As to theory, I myself don't think that it is very interesting to talk about. I made up my mind long ago that the more I try to pursue something, the harder it is to gain.

    I also know that the only method is the Self. I am moved by the efforts to stop me from sharing my music, but I will just keep going forward, forward until I stop, even though I never stop. I take as my motto from Sir John Falstaff in Shakespeare's Henry IV: "Give me life!" I resist preparing so that I may be free from the anxieties that we all have sometimes of over-learning.

    Since I am also Jewish, I do not believe in randomness, everything for me has a purpose. I like to let the music do what it does, while letting it be. The harsh criticisms I get and welcome about the music and about the so-called-randomness seem to me to be overlooking the many patterns and motifs I put into the score. I consider myself the mildest of men and I think that it would be bad for my character to complain about what I think bad in criticisms and in critics.

    I do not read music when I play, but I can write it.

    Maybe I am a delicious troll, but I doubt it. There is much more I have to say musically that will probably shock. However, I think that if you know me, then you will not find much new or surprising in my music. I know many heroes of mine who have been caught up with arguing about why it is not important to care about what is true or false. Instead of knowledge, I seek hope as my guide. I have a knowledge and experience received of music and useful musical biographies. It will probably be more important to change the subject, than to argue over stuff we can just as easily throw out the window, like horseplay.

    Gnostic Classical Symphony No.5:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAOsPcwYFDY
    Last edited by Billy; Aug-16-2012 at 04:23.
    "If a Musical Piece and a Critic’s head collide, and there is a hollow sound, is it always the Musical Piece’s fault?” - variation on a quote by Lichtenberg

  14. #131
    Senior Member juergen's Avatar
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    Well, is he still a troll? I think others can learn from him, not vice versa.
    Last edited by juergen; Aug-16-2012 at 06:28.

  15. #132
    Senior Member StevenOBrien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Instead of knowledge, I seek hope as my guide.
    You're truly a lost cause if you prefer to seek security in your self-comforting lies than be guided by truth and knowledge, but if that's what makes you happy, I wish you the best. You do have the potential to write great music though, but unless you follow the latter path and seek to constantly improve yourself, it's never going to happen.

    The reason most of us truly can't get enough of composers like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, and even The Beatles is not solely because they were skilled musicians, had great ideas or because their music is skillfully constructed. No, the reason we see their music as great art is because their music contains truth and intent. They lived for what they did and they poured everything they had into it. No matter how perfect their music became, they constantly sought ways of improving both themselves and their music. You can feel it running through your veins when you listen to it. They never deluded themselves by just blindly hoping that things would work out.

    As a species, where on earth would we be if we just fell back upon hope and never sought anything more? Back in the plains of Africa I'd imagine, walking on all fours without any language to communicate with like we are right now, all because we did not seek to improve ourselves. We were afraid of change and content with what little we had.

    Your music is, as you admit, based on nothing but lies and hope. Hope without any action on your part will achieve absolutely nothing, and lying to yourself will only drive you backwards. Seek the truth and put it into your music. I hope you choose the right path.

    Of course, good music is entirely subjective and I'm in no position to tell you what's good and what's bad, but I'd ask you to at least take a step back and evaluate your position. It's up to you, but surely it's at least worth doing that, given that the majority of us think you're not really going anywhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by juergen View Post
    Well, is he still a troll? I think others can learn from him, not vice versa.
    Indeed. Coming soon, my "Atheist Symphony No. 1".

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  17. #133
    Senior Member Couchie's Avatar
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    ^ That, and... Billy like needs to get laid.
    Doch dieses Wörtlein: und, -wär' es zerstört,
    wie anders als mit Isoldes eignem Leben wär' Tristan der Tod gegeben?

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  19. #134
    Senior Member Billy's Avatar
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    Ramako, I do have other music I call Gnostic Symphonies, like this one,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdP56...feature=relmfu

    They are not the same as my Gnostic Classical Symphonies.

    Gnostic Classical Symphony No.6:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVqfEQgZIuo
    "If a Musical Piece and a Critic’s head collide, and there is a hollow sound, is it always the Musical Piece’s fault?” - variation on a quote by Lichtenberg

  20. #135
    Senior Member Crudblud's Avatar
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    Billy, I have a couple of questions:

    Why do you refer to these symphonies as "classical"?

    What exactly is a "rum symphony"?

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