Banner: Fanfare for two trumpets and organ

Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: High notes on the recorder.

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    268
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default High notes on the recorder.

    I'm talking about D6 and above. My fingering charts only go up to high d, but I've already figured out a couple semitones higher. Problem is they sound really really bad. They sound like they are being squeaked or overblown, but thats the only way I can produce them. Ive been practicing them, and got them to sound a little better by playing softer, which is real hard, because unlike the lower notes, you actually have to blow harder to get the correct tone.


    I'm working on flute concierto (that I'm told was originally written for recorder) that goes up to and trills on high e. that would mean I'd need fingering for high f.

    if anyone knows correct fingering i'd be really appreiciateve because i really don't want to have to take it an octave down.


    Also does anyone know if the transverse flute is similar to recorder in respect to harmonic series etc. (please forgive me if I'm using this term wrong.)

    my background is in trombone. Previously I had always assumed that brass instruments were the only instruments that could produce more than one tone with the same lengh of tubing (slide position etc), but with recorder there is actually more than just one that I had previously been aware. Is flute and other woodwinds like this too or are they a bit easier in this regard?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,709
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Hi there,

    it really depends which recorder you are playing on. Are you on soprano or garklein?

    The recorder designs vary. Some recorders have wider than 2 octaves +/- 1 or 2 notes. There are a number of alternative fingering charts for Mollenhauer (from their website), as well as quite a range for other makers (Moeck, Adri-Dream blah blah). I presume you're not playing a plastic Aulos or Suzuki one....anyway, hunt down the fingering charts from your recorder's manufacturer.

    Without knowing any of your specifics, the fingering for the third octave D (I don't play miniature recorder! I do have a bass recorder though, so it's not the same D6 as you're referring to but the fingering probably is)

    Thumb pinch + 1, 3, 4, (1/2 of 6) and little finger down (1/2) is what I use for the 3rd octave. The bass recorder has partial keys btw.


    The transverse flute goes 3 1/2 octave span (comfortably) and practically 4 octaves,with a low B foot, high E, D, C, B gizmo keys on the most expensive. The harmonic overblows are different from the recorder: your recorder uses a fipple and you can only overblow so much and suffer with a high shrieking volume. The flute is more refined: you can control and bend the overtones. There are many alternative fingerings (you call them cross-fingerings on the recorder) used with keys in the flute.

    The baroque traverso shares a lot in common with your recorder fingering: that has an octave span from low D/low C (*in some) to third octave A. That is all that is ever written for baroque music. Sadly, the recorder's limitations are there.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    268
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm playing a plastic yamaha soprano recorder. does that help? I will try searching their website. Thanks. I also read something yesterday about covering the 'end hole' (for lack of a better word to call it) by resting it on your thigh.... I tried that yesterday and it does seem to work... but how realistic is that? Is that practice actually used in performance?

    Thanks

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    268
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    also one quick follow up question. recarding propper cleaning techniques. What is the propper way to clean the fipple. I had two other plastic recorders for a short time before I switched to the yamaha. i had discovered that the fipple can be removed by firmly tapping from within side the mouthpiece causing it to dislodge. This is the only way I have discovered to properly clean it. i havn't attempted this yet with the yamaha because I don't know if this is correct to do this or not. Thanks.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,709
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by obwan View Post
    I'm playing a plastic yamaha soprano recorder. does that help? I will try searching their website. Thanks. I also read something yesterday about covering the 'end hole' (for lack of a better word to call it) by resting it on your thigh.... I tried that yesterday and it does seem to work... but how realistic is that? Is that practice actually used in performance?

    Thanks
    Hi there,

    my goodness. Are you seriously trying to use a plastic Yamaha for performance?!

    You can get away with that in kindergarten, but probably not above elementary school. You're really pushing the limits of that plastic schoolchild instrument. Not that it's not possible: it's just not very pleasant listening for your audience.

    How short are you, if you can cover the end hold with your thigh lol. I can't even cover the split tone holes (for sounding note 'c') with my nipple lol. Effectively, you are trying to 'pinch' the airstream by resting it on your thigh, but that is going to choke the instrument into a squeal. If you cannot get it with the fingering, it's best to avoid acrobatic and contortionist positions to try and seal off the air exit

    Here's some alternative fingering charts for you to try:

    http://www.dolmetsch.com/cfingerchart.htm

    With the split holes - try covering half, rather than the whole as shown for the Dolmetsch recorder and work out which fingering works best for your plastic Yamaha.

    http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/recorder/

    and a download one:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...em3s6GDv32XCQw

    Or just get a decent performance grade one, like a Rossler (they are quite cheap, after they were absorbed by Mollenhauer); a Mollenhauer, Moeck. You need one with good voicing to get the full range .... your audience will agree if they get to hear a professional wooden recorder!
    You can see that D6 (and even E6) are listed for some recorders -

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,709
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by obwan View Post
    also one quick follow up question. recarding propper cleaning techniques. What is the propper way to clean the fipple. I had two other plastic recorders for a short time before I switched to the yamaha. i had discovered that the fipple can be removed by firmly tapping from within side the mouthpiece causing it to dislodge. This is the only way I have discovered to properly clean it. i havn't attempted this yet with the yamaha because I don't know if this is correct to do this or not. Thanks.

    Eek!!!!

    You're really starting to scare me lol.

    N.B. *** Never ever touch the fipple *****


    Yours is a plastic recorder: the fipple may form condensation, which should be left to air-dry. You can use a silk mop to swab the inside of the recorder, however not the fipple. If you are dissecting your recorder to clean it, you are going to end up with tolerance problems. The good thing about plastic recorders is that they don't need maintenance: it's very unusual to require invasive surgical cleaning, unless there is a child's drool going down the windway. You can wipe it down with alcohol safely (unlike wooden recorders).

    I can only guess that your two cheaper component plastic recorders, had loose parts: unless I'm mistaken, they are not supposed to be cleaned that way. Bass recorders are different: the head piece has a crown (removable) and a bocal (tube - removable). The head itself, has an expansion block, to soak up the moisture. If you're finding that you can only play for about 5 minutes due to muffled sounds, that is the condensation of the airstream: it is worse with plastics than woods, which absorb it. At worse, the condensation forms droplet spray down the windway and chokes it. Then, you have no choice but to leave it to dry.

    Hope that answers your questions.

    PS - when are you going to take up the flute

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    268
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The first two I had were $2 & $3 USD respectively, the yamaha was $5. I have heard that Yamaha makes the best plastic recorders, and I have seen youtubes with plastic recorders that sounded very nice. The first and cheapest one, actually has the easiest time producing the high notes, and second one, the hardest time, and the yamaha somewhere inbetween but with a much better sound throughout.

    Yes i do suffer from clogging from time to time, but not after just 5 minutes. its more like 30 minutes to an hour. And no i'm not practicing this for performance, though I do feel (once I get more acquainted with the recorder in general) that all 3 but especially the yamaha would be ideal for performance.

    What does my height have anything to do with it? I practice sitting down so its no stretch at all. Also if I shift my right hand 1 notch down, so my right index finger is covering the hole for my right middle finger, I can cover the bell hole with my pinky.

    When Am I going to take up the flute? Why is it any harder/easier than the recorder? I presume never, because I like the fact the recorder is not called a flute, which means I, being a man, can get away with playing it. I only wish english wasn't the only language in the world with a separate name for recorder and for flute.


    Oh and btw, no they weren't moving parts. But I after cleaning the inside of the tubes with a soft cloth, noticed that I was still sufferent from clogging in the mouth piece. I tried various things like stuffing the cloth in the bottom end of the mouth piece, covering the sound slit (or whatever its called.... is it called the labium?) and blowing hard into the mouth piece. I noticed spit 'oozing' out of the crevices where the 'fipple' had been lodged in there. I wasn't sure if what i was doing was good or not but i needed some way to clean out the mouthpiece. soon later i discovered the whole fipple could be removed with a semi-hard tap from within the mouthpiece with my cleaning rod. After I got my yamaha, I didn't notice the same oozing of spit when stuffing the end of the mouthpiece and covering the labium, hence I presume that the fipple of the yamaha can not be removed in the same fashion.

    Other habits I'm not sure about:
    Shaking my recorder (from either end) like it were a magic wand to dislodge spit droplets. Works like a charm.

    Biting my mouthpiece.
    Ok I'm actually pretty sure about this one. Pretty sure its a no-no. But its already developed into a bad habit. I'm trying to redevelop my embourchure from playing the trombone to aid holding it steady. Otherwise I'm likely to drop it whenever playing D or any other note with an open left thumb.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,709
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Wow - that's pretty cheap. For US$5, it's great that you're even getting two octaves

    Aulos and Suzuki make very decent plastic recorders too, but perhaps I'm used to wood (even if I still keep a plastic bass recorder for outdoors messing around).

    I can't touch the recorder bell end with my thigh, let alone anything else - that's all. I'm amazed that you can pinch the air from it this way (unless you're sitting down to play?) In any case, it's not usual to alter the note pitch this way - perhaps it's just one of those improvisation techniques which are best left out.

    The flute isn't necessarily harder than the recorder although the skill set takes some time to acquire (lol! it is harder then ). The recorder is called a flute - the 'baroque flute' or the flauto dolce in Italian. The name isn't so important, although many men and women alike, enjoy playing with their flutes

    I suppose with the trombone embouchure, the aerophonic flute can be another embouchure headache :/ I had that problem with the flute and clarinet for a while. Now I barely touch the clarinet.

    Shaking the droplets out is fine; the labium is delicate, and once it goes, it's really expensive/hard to repair. Best to leave in a warm aired room to dry out.

    The tenor recorder is usually the natural progression from a soprano (same fingering; same stave music, just sounds an octave lower). If you're a recorder fan looking for something beyond Handel and Bach transcriptions, this is a brilliant album:



    John Turner is professor of music somewhere - he's recorded extensively, including recorder concertos for Olympia Records. Amazing what he can do with a recorder. Makes you barely miss a flute

    Re: gripping with your teeth (yup ...no no...!) - the right thumb balances it, and the little right finger too. I like the bass recorder, which uses a sling (like a saxaphone sling) so that you don't drop it. It does look really sexy slung sideways too. Just the breath required for it, is enough to make faint....

    Otherwise I'm likely to drop it whenever playing D or any other note with an open left thumb.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Head_case; Oct-22-2012 at 23:05.

Similar Threads

  1. Sonata for Recorder Consort
    By soundandfury in forum Today's Composers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Apr-21-2012, 17:12
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Sep-12-2011, 08:52
  3. Concerto for Soprano Recorder
    By soundandfury in forum Today's Composers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Jun-26-2011, 22:29
  4. Bach on recorder
    By eloycm in forum Recorded Music and Publications
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Dec-21-2006, 14:06
  5. High notes on Viola?
    By baroque flute in forum Strings
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Jan-21-2005, 22:43

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •