Thread: Vivaldi, 1 concerto 400 times?

Take away the "circle of fifths" progression and 2/3 of Vivaldi's non-vocal music evaporates. =\

Stravinsky said lots of really stupid things, but he wrote amazing music so we can forgive some of it (not all of it though).

What you're talking about, Perotin, is 'sewing machine' music. Telemann is a good example. I think Vivaldi too. Even the 'greats' did lots of rehash - Handel, Mozart even J.S. Bach. The Baroque and Classical Eras did have many conventions that where more or less adhered to. Of course, these composers did move away from these conventions in a good deal of their works, and I think that's what makes them great. Not some obscure trio sonata or something that's same to a dozen or more others they did, but its their unique works that make them stand out from the many composers from back then who where (is it fair to say) lesser lights of their era.

Let's face it, much of the stuff from back then does sound the same, basically because it is, in terms of the conventions. They used these same kind of chord progressions in many of their works. Of course we can offer examples like Rebel's Les Elements or stuff like the sturm und drang symphonies of Haydn, C.P.E. Bach and Mozart as being uber dissonant for the time, but they are not typical of their output as a whole (& I think Wolfie did only sturm und drang symphony, the 25th in G minor, and its one of his most popular works - along with the 40th in G minor - simply because it stands out from most of his other symphonies as different and unique).

There's obvious things like this that's not said on this forum, maybe to protect people from being discomfited (as I recently and periodically get abused by a 'trio' of members here who I've singled out many times) or maybe cos its like treading on eggshells. But read even the most basic books on classical music, and it does describe this type of 'sewing machine' music or 'music made to order.'

Music made to order

Originally Posted by Sid James

What you're talking about, Perotin, is 'sewing machine' music. Telemann is a good example. I think Vivaldi too. Even the 'greats' did lots of rehash - Handel, Mozart even J.S. Bach. The Baroque and Classical Eras did have many conventions that where more or less adhered to. Of course, these composers did move away from these conventions in a good deal of their works, and I think that's what makes them great. Not some obscure trio sonata or something that's same to a dozen or more others they did, but its their unique works that make them stand out from the many composers from back then who where (is it fair to say) lesser lights of their era.

Let's face it, much of the stuff from back then does sound the same, basically because it is, in terms of the conventions. They used these same kind of chord progressions in many of their works. Of course we can offer examples like Rebel's Les Elements or stuff like the sturm und drang symphonies of Haydn, C.P.E. Bach and Mozart as being uber dissonant for the time, but they are not typical of their output as a whole (& I think Wolfie did only sturm und drang symphony, the 25th in G minor, and its one of his most popular works - along with the 40th in G minor - simply because it stands out from most of his other symphonies as different and unique).

There's obvious things like this that's not said on this forum, maybe to protect people from being discomfited (as I recently and periodically get abused by a 'trio' of members here who I've singled out many times) or maybe cos its like treading on eggshells. But read even the most basic books on classical music, and it does describe this type of 'sewing machine' music or 'music made to order.'

Music made to order

It's not the same. It's similar in style as every Era has their unique sound. This is one of those things that I diisagree strongly with you on. But you aren't going to see anything extreme. Just variations. Just enough to make that piece unique. The same goes for the Classical Era.

Stravinsky was a great composer. He made great music.

A great composer. Great music.

Composer. Music.

That's it.

Originally Posted by tgtr0660

Stravinsky was a great composer. He made great music.

A great composer. Great music.

Composer. Music.

That's it.

Not as great as Vivaldi though.

The other point about what Stravinsky said was that little was known of Vivaldi's output except a lot of similar concertos, his vocal music was still obscure at the time.

I personally don't see what is wrong with writing the same thing 400 times if it is good, and there is variety to them even if it is not immense. Some people are able to constantly reinvent themselves and try different things, like Stravinsky, other people find a niche and keep doing what works for them or others.

There is the romantic era idea that the artist is a striver after beauty and truth in whatever ways possible whereas before they were mere workmen, but that is pretty much just a romantic fantasy. Artists have been going their own ways since time in memorial, sometimes they get a sympathetic patron/critic/audience but mostly they get lost to history.

I too hear the repetitive quality in V's concertos - some listeners apparently not. He was a "formulaic" writer if ever there was one. A producer of pleasing "product" to be sure - but formulaic nonetheless. If any one is interested I can go into more detail in musicological terms - but then I will have to consult the books just so I get the explanation right and I'd rather avoid this. So... please, believe me.