Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 55

Thread: Wagner and Nazis (Oh no, not again!!!)

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    558
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Wagner and Nazis (Oh no, not again!!!)

    In light of the recent Dusseldorf debacle, an item that directly addresses one of the central issues of the continuing Wagner debate...

    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201...zi-stigma-fair

    Read it (if you dare).

  2. #2
    Senior Member SiegendesLicht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    3,102
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    For now I will dare you: what is your own opinion about Wagner? You have posted a few things here concerning the Meister, written by other people, and I remember you saying back in February you were all set and ready for a meeting with him and his art. Have you made any progress since then?
    ... yet for us will still remain the holy German art... (Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg)
    ***
    God gave all men all earth to love,
    But since our hearts are small,
    Ordained for each one spot should prove
    Beloved over all.
    R. Kipling

  3. Likes Delicious Manager liked this post
  4. #3
    Senior Member ahammel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,462
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    "Oh no not again", indeed.

    RW died in 1883. The Nazi party was founded in 1920. The connection between the two may be of interest to history buffs or psychology majors, but it need not concern music fans.

  5. Likes Nereffid, rrudolph, Gustavgraves and 5 others liked this post
  6. #4
    Senior Member brianvds's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Centurion, South Africa
    Posts
    2,330
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    There is already enough to hate about Wagner's music without having to bother about his politics as well... :-)

  7. Likes Huilunsoittaja, Ukko, julianoq and 5 others liked this post
  8. #5
    Moderator Huilunsoittaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,785
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianvds View Post
    There is already enough to hate about Wagner's music without having to bother about his politics as well... :-)
    That's the spirit!

    In that case, I would have to hate Russian music, because of the horrible things they did/tried to do to both sides of my family who lived in Finland during WWII, and before then even. Which is impossible for me to do! :P
    "Music is an art, and art is forever. Music should not succumb to fashion, which is passing and forgotten."
    Glazunov


    Join TC's Official Russian Composer Fanclub!

    Oh, and, here's my professional website!

  9. #6
    Senior Member Nereffid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Co. Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    6,105
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ahammel View Post
    "Oh no not again", indeed.

    RW died in 1883. The Nazi party was founded in 1920. The connection between the two may be of interest to history buffs or psychology majors, but it need not concern music fans.
    Yes, I wonder are there sports forums where people discuss the "continuing debate" over the connection between physical education and the Nazis?

  10. Likes ahammel, Ingélou, Kieran and 4 others liked this post
  11. #7
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SoCal, USA
    Posts
    20,086
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Wagner was certainly an outspoken anti-Semite, but so were a lot of people in those days -- even though they may have counted individual Jews among their friends and supporters. Beethoven was a casual anti-Semite, for instance, and Tchaikovsky a far less casual one.

    But none seem to have advocated specific anti-Jewish actions, such as appeared later in 20th-century Germany. For that, we can look back to the aging Martin Luther: "Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but 'the devil's people': he referred to them with violent, vile language. Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' would be forced into labour or expelled 'for all time'. " (Wiki)

    After that, it seems that maybe Wagner's views aren't really worth talking about!


  12. Likes Kieran, AClockworkOrange, hello and 2 others liked this post
  13. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    558
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegendesLicht View Post
    For now I will dare you: what is your own opinion about Wagner? You have posted a few things here concerning the Meister, written by other people, and I remember you saying back in February you were all set and ready for a meeting with him and his art. Have you made any progress since then?
    A valid question...

    The cold hard fact of the matter is I have been exploring opera of late - listening, reading, watching and researching - from Renaissance antecedents to Monteverdi's L'Orfeo and L'incoronazione di Poppea, through Lully and the French influence, side-tracked by Purcell and his delightful semi-operas (esp. King Arthur), Handel and Mozart (try to make sense of the Magic Flute libretto if you can). But, given that there is just so much to read and listen to - an average opera lasting two and a half hours - I have not yet seriously tackled Wagner. However, I feel that I can only really appreciate the cataclysmic impact he had on opera (and in shaping the course of music in the 19thC and 20thC) by measuring him against what came before. I look forward to exploring his Ring Cycle - for which I am fully kitted-out with two cycles on CD and one on DVD, in addition to a recently published up-dated libretto in translation. My opinion on Wagner is thus temporarily in abeyance, though at this stage I must say, I have yet to come across any other composer with such universally bad PR.
    Last edited by KRoad; May-13-2013 at 20:55.

  14. Likes TalkingHead, samurai liked this post
  15. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY.
    Posts
    1,873
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Many people make the mistake of assuming that Wagner's music and philosophy turned Hitler into the sick monster he was . WRONG !!!!!!!!! The fact is that Hitler read his own insane ideas into Wagner .
    Those who blame Wagner for Hitler are putting the cart before the horse .
    Wagner's operas (or music dramas if you insist on it) have absolutley NOTHING to do with Jews,Judaism,
    racism, ant-semitism etc. (unless you insist on reading an anti-semitic subtext into them, which is questionable ). If you go through the all the librettos ,you will not find a single anti-semitic statement by any of the characters ,no discussions of Jews or Judaism let laone statements dneigrating Jews . There are no Jewish characters . (some,including none other than that great Wagnerian Gustav Mahler ,have descrbed Mime in the Ring as a caricature of Jews ,as well as Beckmesser in Die Meistersinger although this is questionable at best). Kundry in Parsifal ,who is doomed to eternal reincarnation and misery because she laughed at Jesus on the cross, might have been a Jew at the time, but we will never know .
    The Ring takes place in a mythical teutonic world where Judaism is non-existent . Kundry makes an oblique reference to Jesus on the cross but refers to Christ as "him" in th e second act of Parsifal when trying to seduce the protagonist .
    But basically, the Wagner operas are stories ABOUT PEOPLE and their relationships ,not anti-semtitic tracts . It makes absolutely no sense to hate Wagner's music because of the man .

  16. Likes SiegendesLicht, Ebab, mamascarlatti and 1 others liked this post
  17. #10
    Senior Member (Ret) moody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    4,666
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It is nonsense and "Oh no,not again" is all that comes to mind. Perhaps you would like to explain your reasons for launching into this pointless subject once again.
    Fools talk because they have to say something, wise men talk because they have something to say.

  18. Likes ahammel, PetrB, Delicious Manager liked this post
  19. #11
    Senior Member deggial's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Boisvert
    Posts
    1,751
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Huilunsoittaja View Post
    Which is impossible for me to do! :P
    man up, young lady!

  20. #12
    Senior Member Ebab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Munich, Germany
    Posts
    250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KRoad View Post
    though at this stage I must say, I have yet to come across any other composer with such universally bad PR.
    If you care, you will find quite a few free-thinking, smart, and hip, deeply Wagner-intrigued persons where you'd have expected them the least.
    Last edited by Ebab; May-13-2013 at 22:25.

  21. #13
    Senior Member jani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    1,197
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I have a Wagner&Nazi joke but i think its better not to tell it this time.
    Winning!
    I have on gear, GO!
    Epic winning!
    Do you love Ludwig Van Beethovens music?
    Does his life-story/music inspire you?
    Can you strongly relate to the emotions on his music?


    If you answered positively to all those questions, we have just found the right place for you!
    The only and THE GREATEST LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN FAN CLUB IN TC!!!
    JOIN NOW!!!
    http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/...an-shrine.html

  22. #14
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    15,935
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Is it just my I-pad or can the rest of you get that link?

  23. #15
    Senior Member SiegendesLicht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    3,102
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jani View Post
    I have a Wagner&Nazi joke but i think its better not to tell it this time.
    Oh c'mon, we are all grown-up people around here
    ... yet for us will still remain the holy German art... (Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg)
    ***
    God gave all men all earth to love,
    But since our hearts are small,
    Ordained for each one spot should prove
    Beloved over all.
    R. Kipling

  24. Likes Ebab liked this post
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Wagner on DVD and Blu-ray
    By nickgray in forum Opera on DVD, Blu-ray and CD
    Replies: 477
    Last Post: Dec-17-2019, 05:18
  2. Wagner for people who don't like Wagner
    By Couchie in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: Jan-13-2014, 22:28
  3. I need help with Wagner, pls?
    By huntsman in forum Opera
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: Apr-11-2013, 18:42
  4. I need help with Wagner, pls...
    By huntsman in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Feb-15-2013, 21:23
  5. Wagner and Nazis (yet again!)
    By KRoad in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 93
    Last Post: Aug-07-2012, 12:38

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •