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Thread: Allan Pettersson

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    I liked Lindberg in the 6th better than the CPO, I'll give it a spin one of these days, but Kamu will probably remain a favourite. Will also check if there is a CD transfer somewhere of Kamu.

    As regards the CPO, my impression was that it didn't really get off the ground, the cantabile or 'singing' element was downplayed, and the music seemed more static. Some might hear a quality in those features. Having Kamu, I replaced the CPO with Lindberg. But it's been a while since I heard Lindberg.
    Your critique , to your relief, has a ~~Confirmation~~~.
    OK now where do we go from here,,,CBS owns the copy rights to the Kamu 1976 recording.
    I serious doubt, in fact has Sony ever released any new classical cds lately? Reissues?

    That record file is collecting dust somewhere and has very little chance of seeing the light od day on cd format.

    And try to contact Sony? Good luck, you may find no one in the company who has any clue who to ask, , and so could care less if that record EVER sees CD format.
    Whats that to them.. they think, *how many copies will we sell?* *1000,at beast?*, will not even pay the electric bill to transfer to cd.
    Sop I have to recant my above opinion it does matter who is conduciting.
    I only had the Trojan/Berlin, and so , like our Gieseking/LP days, we thought Gieseking was *just perfect* in Debussy/Ravel. Now we know better.


    So Lindberg will have to be The Alternate Performance, until we geta bootlegcopy. If you could, please rip us some copies on CD and we could all send you some cash for the CD.

    If you would be so kind.

    http://www.classical.net/music/comp....sson/sym06.php

  2. #122
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    I think I saw a CD transfer for sale once of Kamu. Will dig into it, but I'm busy with work right now.

    There are 2 YT versions claiming to be the CPO, but they have very varying timings. Kamu on LP is about 53:30.
    I'll dig into it later.
    Last edited by joen_cph; May-10-2019 at 15:07.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    I think I saw a CD transfer for sale once of Kamu. Will dig into it, but I'm busy with work right now.

    There are 2 YT versions claiming to be the CPO, but they have very varying timings. Kamu on LP is about 53:30.
    I'll dig into it later.
    Please do, On second thoughts, I do recall, some of the CPO seemed a bit *ragged* , rough shop, either due to

    1) not enough time spent in practice
    2) some of the orch not able to connect with Pettersson, as his music is quite dif from all the typical old standards
    3) the score is beyond the conductors abilities
    4) the orch/conductor may not have heard other versions, as the CPO in most syms, were the 1st to record on CD format.= no one knows exatly how the sym is suppose to come off


    Future recordings will have the benefit, if not the blessings of having access to multiple recordings, and see where there is room for alterations.

    Recall Hillary Hahn's comments on her approach to any VC.
    She spends great time and effort in practice as to which of the countless variables involved, , thus attempting to tweak the finest interpretation.
    She is a master on many levels, for to her due-diligence.
    The one thing I've noticed which holds her back from even further success, is the quality of conductor and orch,. When one is the best violinist, this can pose a problem for her.

    Same in Pettersson, Can a conductor finda group which has the talents needed to make a Pettersson a stunning success as has Kamu's Norrepokin/1976 orchestra?

    Remember the 1970's were the Golden Age for orchestras, From there orchestras mostly went down hill in quality....and has been that way ever since and will remain sio,
    'The best orchestras were in the late 1950's, - late 1980's.
    Yes I am aware the Bayreuth early 1950's were definitive, but that was a anomaly
    I can't recall one truly great orch from the 1990's through today.
    I know I will get some flack for that opinion.
    I am not saying orchestras are lousey from the 1990's- today, what I am saying they are mostly if not all, grade B quality, while the earlier orchestras, many were Grade A, some were Grade A+++
    Now you are lucky to find a Grade B+ orch.
    While many are grade C.
    Classical music is not forever.

  4. #124
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    OK I'm sampling... on Spotify... did not stay with #10 by Francis, but Lindberg's #5 is holding my interest for now... barely...

    still going with #5... figure 17 was totally Sibelian... I can see how this could grow on someone, if they have the patience... it's very broody... at some point Sibelius might break out a melody, but this is more like interludes linked together with occasional crescendos... so Sibelius' #4 is most like this. How bad is that?

    With Francis my ear sensed sloppiness from the beginning, one of my frequent gripes with some orchestras on CPO.

    Figure 129 is almost Prokofiev-like... but Schnittke does not come to mind yet. There is that cold northern feeling associated with Scandinavian and Russian music all through the piece..

    It's over now, and was definitely worth hearing. I'm not gonna rush into the "suicide symphony" without a pause though...
    Last edited by philoctetes; May-10-2019 at 16:30.

  5. #125
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    Pettersson is not like a Brahms sym you know.

    I'd say Pettersson is just as much dif as Schnittke, perhaps more so.
    No rest for the weary in Pettersson, everyone has to on their toes throughout, At least Schnittke offers lull places.
    But not Pettersson..
    This supreme challenge must be kept in mind.
    As I say this ain't no Tchaikovsky or Beethoven sym you know.
    Sibelius?
    I think I've heard comments like Bruknerish/Mahlerish (in structure only, not sound world), But never Sibelius.
    I just do not hear any resemblances,,,although Pettersson does take 1 tiny passage from the Sibelius VC, , lasts for no more than a few seconds and absolutely takes it to a celestial level.
    Comes and is gone in a flash, Schnittke is famous for these types of transcriptions, blink and its gone.

    As I say some of the CPO had rough edges,,but lets be thankly the CPO set even exists.
    AS before all we had were a few Segerstam, some LP's and rare OOP cds.

    If Beethoven can must up 200+ recordings,,,it is a possibility we may see at least 1 or 2 more Pettersson in the coming decades.
    I'd like to see either Salonen with the Swedish radio or the young british conductor Daniel Harding. with the Swedish radio.
    Funding? Not just after a Lindberg BIS release.
    Lets be content we have the BIS and CPO releases.

    The sloppy ness you hear might be some bias(make sure you read SOME as = a pinch) on your part,which you dragged in to the listening room.

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  7. #126
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    Read Russ and Hakan 's comments below


    As for slight echos of Sibelius in the 11th, agree, Is this a bad thing?

    https://www.amazon.com/Pettersson-Sy...r=8-1-fkmrnull
    Last edited by paulbest; May-10-2019 at 18:04.

  8. #127
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    I just now see you madea edit, yes has elements of that northern scandinavian dark twilight atmosphere.

    I am now listening to Francis and the UNREAL Hanover SO in the 11th.
    Moveing, flows, no soloist out of place, everyone is one cue and in touch with Francis.

    I'd rate the Fransic/Hanover 11th, as 10 out of 10, and trust me, I am no where as liberal with stars as David Hurwitz.
    With my critique, a orch has earn every single star. Why would I cheat just because I am fond of Pettersson?

  9. #128
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    Here is the amazon listing, syms 7+11/Segerstam/Norrepoking/orig release 1993!!!!!!!!!!!!!/BIS, 9 reviews, all gave 5 stars, read for yourself.

    If anyone has time, please give us any updates between the Segerstam , Francis, Lindberg 11th's.
    I just don't think any issues with the 3. I am guessing all 3 will be 10 star status.
    I actually had to edit my comments on Segerstam's 7th, one year after my initial post.

    Can not exactly recall what it was,,,maybe after some 13 years its time for a reconsideration,,but I'd bet I am going to stay with the Albrecht/Hamberg State Phil Orch/CPO vs the Segerstam/Norrepoking/BIS.
    in the 7th.


    + I have received another 3 or 4 7th's since 2007 amazon comment.


    Mark Shanks offers, as his usual, inviting, enlightening reviews. Trusted source.



    https://www.amazon.com/Pettersson-Sy...ct_top?ie=UTF8

  10. #129
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    OK I'll just refrain from any more comments on Pettersson, and nobody will have to read them.

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  12. #130
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    Just see this 2013 YT upload, ,
    starting at 6:24. *The 7th, the only sym folks wish to hear*,,7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th, ,,,SEVENTH!!!!!!
    If I had the authority, I'd place X # of year moratorium on the Pettersson Seventh. = banned, illegal to perform or further recordings.
    I really really would.

    Why?
    You figure it out.



  13. #131
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    You can get a copy of the Pettersson 6 conducted by Kamu here (along with a few others): http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm

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  15. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by rw181383 View Post
    You can get a copy of the Pettersson 6 conducted by Kamu here (along with a few others): http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm
    And note that the unique 9th with Comissiona is there with it too.
    Last edited by joen_cph; May-12-2019 at 05:56.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    O Okay, I’ve heard his 1st, 6th, 7th, 10th and 11th symphonies. Does his music represent the zeitgeist of our times as it’s been proposed? I do not mean to sound unfair or unkind to Mr. Pettersson, but I sincerely hope not, because if it is, we’re all in trouble. Why? Because there’s not an ounce of mercy or redemptive grace in the symphonies I’ve heard so far. None. Zero. Not for him, not for you, not for me. My overriding impression up to now is that his music portrays Man totally at the mercy of fate, including a number of malevolent forces that he sounds terrified of. Listen to the first 12 minutes of his 7th Symphony. He’s huddled in a corner somewhere. He sounds petrified without any mitigating or higher forces to help him. It’s like watching someone in a state of purgatory and he’s describing what’s going on there but trapped with no way out.

    What’s interesting about it is that he seems to be describing what’s going on in that dimension, so I feel compassion for him, but I do not share his stark reality that his music portrays. His symphonies are full of never-ending stress, tension, and crisis with no relief. The elements in his music that are so brilliantly done, it’s polyphony, which can be very compelling and intriguing, is in constant motion with maybe a brief moment of respite, but then it’s back to crisis as normal, and the symphonies may simply be the crisis of his own physical pain, anguish, and hardship in sound that he’s experienced throughout his life. It’s hard to say. But whatever he’s saying, I do not feel that it’s universal not enough, constructive enough, hopeful enough, inspiring enough, to attract a wide audience and to place him in the league with the other greats, though I would consider him one of the most talented composers of the 20th -century in ability but not necessarily his variety of content.

    He stays in one basic mood for an entire symphony and cannot seem to get out of it, causing his emotional range to be very narrow rather than wide despite some of its surface interest and appeal. I even skipped ahead to his 15th Symphony to see if he was feeling any better, to perhaps have found the silver lining in his misery somewhere, and it was more of the same stress and crisis. In the event that his music is the zeitgeist of the times, I view it primarily as a warning to mankind with regard to the road it’s going down of bleak and potential self-destruction. But there’s very little light that I see in it, nothing whatsoever that’s inspirational or what I would call spiritual… not religious, but spiritual in the sense that there’s an animating light that exists within creation that can lead one out of the purgatory of pain, anguish, nihilism and negativity, including of the psychological and emotional kind. I feel compassion for what he went through but I question what he may have gotten out of it that could represent something in the way of healing or redemption. May he rest in peace.

    PS. I find no mystery in why his 7th Symphony is the most popular and the one that people most often request or turn to: It’s the only one with a few moments of calm and perhaps even a peaceful serenity and some relief from his grinding pain. The others that I’ve heard have virtually none of that but are rather a tension-filled agony from almost the beginning to the end. What a shame that he didn’t know more peace and freedom from pain in his life because he could have included more of that, and most people’s lives are not a relentless agony from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night. But with him, he had the agony of his health problems and that’s why I think his symphonies are likely to have have been highly influenced by that. But why shouldn’t that be the case when that’s practically all that he knew. It was his reality and he painted it in sound. On the universal level his music could signify the agony of the world that were all born into. I do not regret the time I spent on him.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; May-12-2019 at 12:43.
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  19. #134
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    Somewhat serene, comforting or beautiful endings are the 9th with Comissiona, the 2nd Violin Cto with Haendel, and, some would say, those of the 8th, the 7th, plus the 6th with Kamu.

    I agree that a lot of our musical taste is partially influenced by psychological content, interpretation, and preferences. I don't hear him staying in one mood forever, however, there are conflicts, developments and times of respite or examples of an oasis of calmness.

    As said before, he hated the idea that his music was self-biographical and self-pitying; traits of the style were already there before his illness, and his choice of texts deals with social and societal issues.
    Last edited by joen_cph; May-12-2019 at 09:14.

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  21. #135
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I am beginning to think that comparisons are limiting and selective, eliminating certain music or ranking it, and in this sense act to reinforce personal paradigms. I am an "omnivore" as a listener, so I approach a wide range of music in an objective manner, and also possess a humility regarding even my own tastes. I've always been this way. To a large degree, I am interested in exploring and covering unfamiliar ground, not in "building an identity" in music.

    Pettersson has said that his own "egocentricity" as an artist can be interpreted as the lonely, sick, and bullied reaction against the unimaginativeness of the healthy person. If he is aware of this quality in his own work, it is no wonder that it does not have wider appeal.

    It also brings into question the relevance of opinions of his music. For example, if we look up Pettersson in Wikepedia, the music is explained somewhat, and facts of his life are given, but nowhere do we find opinions of what "ranking" he holds, or if his music is "good or bad." It is simply accepted that he is an artist who has achieved recognition as an artist.

    In this light, even a thoughtful, insightful assessment of Pettersson's music can be seen as a strategy to build up one's own views, if that assessment represents a refusal to engage to a degree of acceptance, and also espouses "consensus views" of what constitutes a "healthy view of Man," while at the same time attempting to "warn" or dampen the enthusiasm of those who might approach his music, or already hold him in acceptance.

    A certain egocentric disdain comes through in such criticisms.

    While there may be a certain out-of context 'objectivity' to such critical statements, they ultimately are in service of a non-acceptance of Pettersson's aesthetics, and ultimately serve the critic's own worldview.

    If the net result is a refusal and failure to engage with the work, allowable, but irrelevant in the big picture, there is an inherent contradiction, because Pettersson openly admits to having a negative outlook; indeed, this is his subject matter: Man's inhumanity to Man. This is what must be accepted as a "given" if one is to engage with the art.

    So any "protest" against Pettersson's negativity is at odds with the intent of the art, and is therefore a statement that serves only to reinforce a negative opinion, and nothing more as regards the art.

    Even any accompanying understanding of the work is therefore flawed, since it represents a failure to engage; how does this failure color the experience, and what does the non-acceptance "leave out," in terms of truly engaging with the work? Can such a disdain and refusal to engage contribute to a real understanding: No, it is a refusal to accept; it is a rejection.

    Such reactions must therefore be seen as egocentric; failures to engage which are "political" in that they are designed to persuade others to avoid engaging; or act as "smear campaigns" in portraying the music as "not worth" the engagement because of certain factors.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-12-2019 at 14:55.
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