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Robert Schumann

78K views 468 replies 119 participants last post by  Neo Romanza 
#1 ·
The poetic genius, and, when it comes down to it, the greatest Romantic in music history. He was born into a bookseller's family, for goodness' sake. So really, what do all of you think of Robert Schumann?

He was amazing at his piano miniatures and pieces for one instrument and piano, especially voice, with which he effectively became the successor to Schubert as the great songwriter of the century.

His symphonies and concerti are very poetic and romantic, but the scoring and orchestration are terrible. Beyond that, I really see nothing wrong at all with Schumann.

And for those of you who can't get over the fact that he had multiple personalities, get over it. If all you can think of is his mental state... my case is settled.
 
#213 ·
For piano:
Kreisleriana
Papillons
Carnaval
Fantasie in C
Humoreske
Waldszenen
Fantasiestücke, Op. 12

For Orchestra:
Symphonies 2-4
Manfred Overture
Overture, Scherzo and Finale, Op. 52
Piano Concerto
Cello Concerto
Konzertstück for four horns, Op. 86
Introduction and Allegro Appasionato, Op. 92

For Song:
Dichterliebe
Liederkreis, Op. 39
Zwölf Gedichte, Op. 35
Myrthen
 
#214 ·


An interesting graph which shows the relationship between Schumann's creative output and his mental illness. I got this from Reddit and the comments include that the change in number of works is probably better explained by Schumann going through different genre phases. For example, in 1840 he suddenly decided he wanted to write lieder, which are much smaller in scale than most other genres, leading to a dramatic spike.
 
#216 ·
Schumann was known to have composed dozens of works, primarily fugues for piano, while in the asylum. Clara was forbidden to visit him while he was incarcerated [except for the last two days of Robert's life!], but Joachim and Brahms visited him frequently. Brahms and Schumann would play the latter's four-hand piano works on the dusty [and reportedly out of tune, to Brahms' chagrin!] piano in the main ballroom of the old asylum.

Brahms and Clara received custody of the works that Schumann wrote out [it is unknown how complete they were, especially since the "nurses" would punish Schumann for acting badly by depriving him of his pen, paper, and piano privileges], but fearing that they were a product of his madness, they destroyed them.

So I would alter, slightly, the caption and call this a histogram of Schumann's works that were eventually published. It makes sense, too, that he did not compose any works that were published in 1844 since that was the year of his and Clara's tour through Latvia to St. Petersburg, then to Moscow, then back to St. Petersburg, then back to Leipzig, shortly after which he took up residence in the city of Dresden.

Not an altogether happy year undoubtedly, but it was also a very busy year during which Schumann cast off his musical journal editing [a time-consuming and unprofitable enterprise for Schumann] and devoted himself to larger forms. Schumann often composed his music in order to supplement the family's income. Clara had hardly toured much between her wedding and 1844, children were born into the household, and they maintained a lavish lifestyle with servants, chefs, etc. The Schumann's usually had to draw upon their large capital stock of savings in order to make ends meet, as they usually spent more per year than they made. The Russian tour was fabulously successful, despite the ghastly expense involved in making the trip itself. So Schumann had a free hand to devote himself to the beginnings of "Faust", and to the demands of family life.

Still, this histogram is an interesting illustration.
 
#217 ·
Also, the graph is a bit misleading also because Schumann published a large number of lieder in 1840, many of which were composed in earlier years. It was a particularly turbulent year when Clara and Robert were finally married.

Money was a particularly prickly issue between Robert and Clara, with Clara insisting that she needed a husband who could support the comfortable lifestyle to which she was accustomed as a child. It was with finances that Herr Wieck most nearly succeeded in persuading the courts to block their marriage. Though the marriage was ultimately granted, and Herr Wieck defeated, Clara was still very attached to her father and wracked by guilt for having disobeyed him. Schumann tried to earn the arbitrary figure that he pledged that he could, in fact, earn with his current engagements. But those engagements paid little, his editorial work brought only a pittance, and his capital was earning a smaller interest income than Schumann anticipated. So he took upon himself to "dig up" some old lieder that he had written and sold them for publishing.

He settled upon drawing upon the capital itself, rather than laboring so much to produce the number of works to bring in the necessary income, and thus his published output declined substantially in 1841.
 
#219 · (Edited)
The day that Schumann plunged himself into the Rhine, he stated that he was afraid that he was going to harm Clara, another of those very distressing fears to which he was prone.

When he went to the asylum, he wrote occasional letters to her and she to him, but he largely tried to forget her and his children. A terrible time for all of them, to be sure! Brahms and Joachim were the emissaries between them, but the conditions of the asylum, and the condition of Schumann himself were such that she might have been in danger. Of course, it also would have been extremely painful for her, she was devoted to him.

On the last two days of his life, Schumann was virtually immobilized. Unable to walk, hardly able to eat; pale and extremely emaciated, Clara was allowed to see Robert after nearly two years apart. Even though at that point, Robert had hardly spoken of Clara at all [referring to her as one part of a "former life"], she went to him. Reports are that he smiled widely when he saw her, and she stayed by his bed for hours speaking to him and feeding him wine from her finger tips [he was unable to eat]. Reportedly, he put his left arm around her and held her for a few moments. The next day, he was dead.

Truly one of the great, dramatic romances in Classical Music. One of the finest pianists of the century who [wrongly] believed that her being a woman constrained her ability to compose [her compositions are masterful!], married to a titanic composer who lost his ability to play the piano at more than an intermediate level. Both were giants.
 
#222 ·
I often wonder if Schumann's music would have been as brilliant if he hadn't suffered from bipolar disorder. I would say that the lack of productivity during his periods of depression was more than made up for by the overabundance of creativity that occurred during his manic periods (understatement, just consider the lieder from the year 1840 alone). I guess that's what it means to be a genius sometimes - mentally unstable.
 
#224 · (Edited)
The poetic genius, and, when it comes down to it, the greatest Romantic in music history. He was born into a bookseller's family, for goodness' sake. So really, what do all of you think of Robert Schumann?

He was amazing at his piano miniatures and pieces for one instrument and piano, especially voice, with which he effectively became the successor to Schubert as the great songwriter of the century.

His symphonies and concerti are very poetic and romantic, but the scoring and orchestration are terrible. Beyond that, I really see nothing wrong at all with Schumann.

And for those of you who can't get over the fact that he had multiple personalities, get over it. If all you can think of is his mental state... my case is settled.
I think it is so cool that Schumann went insane. I find this fascinating. Likewise, I simply adore other artists who went insane, like jazz pianist Bud Powell, whose deterioration can be heard in the Verve box set; or Nick Drake, the folksinger who committed suicide; Allan Wilson, ditto; Hendrix, maybe; Syd Barrett; Alexander "Skip" Spence, etc.

Personally, I think Beethoven got a little batty by the time of the Grosse Fugue, with its compulsive, repeating figures; I think Schoenberg was a little eccentric; Satie was weird; Cage was weird; Grace Slick pulled a shotgun on sherriffs; I could go on & on. Brahms? Nahhh, he just needed to lose the beard.
 
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#225 ·
I recently read John Worthen's biography of Schumann.

As far as biographies go, it was very disappointing. Worthen begins with an appeal to look upon Schumann as a more complex creature than the constant obsession with his ultimate mental deterioration [a result of tertiary syphilis]. But then he spend 2/3 of the book obsessing over that same mental deterioration, except in arguing against numerous popular speculations. Worthen claims to write a book freed of such fixation, but in truth, he fixates upon that mental deterioration by dispelling, point for point, popular theories.

The part that is properly biographical is interesting, if scattered, but Mr. Worthen spends very little time talking about the relationships Schumann carried with fellow musicians, writers, etc. An anecdote here or there, but the name Brahms shows up 30 times in total, at most. Liszt slightly more often, Mendelssohn less often. The relationships a person has with others is every bit as much genuinely biographical detail as refutation of unlikely ailment attributions.

I walked away from that biography very disappointed. Still, Mr. Worthen makes a frank disclaimer at the beginning that he is no music theorist and will not engage in possibly amateurish discussions on that field. I have already ordered another biography that I hope will more satisfactorily address the life of Robert Schumann the man and the composer.
 
#226 ·
the constant obsession with his ultimate mental deterioration
Psychoanalyzing the dead is never valuable. I recently read Peter Ostwald's Schumann biography and it was, well, more psychoanalysis of Schumann by someone who'd never met Schumann and lived in a different century. Seriously, Freud messed up so profoundly with Dora and she was right there -- why would we ever trust analyses of historical figures from beyond the grave?
 
#234 ·
I disagree with the OP's opinion that Schumann was a terrible orchestrator. Now, granted, he wasn't the best orchestrator around, but he's not a terrible one. I mean one listen to Symphony No. 3 will reveal a man who clearly had complete control of the orchestra. His Violin Concerto is probably the one work that gets the most dirt thrown at it from an orchestration point-of-view. It seems that a conductor has to work hard on the orchestral balances and keep from overpowering the soloist. But, I agree it's not well orchestrated, but it's still a splendid work and contains some exquisite violin writing.

I mean just listen to this:



Absolutely sublime!!! :)
 
#235 ·
I disagree with the OP's opinion that Schumann was a terrible orchestrator. Now, granted, he wasn't the best orchestrator around, but he's not a terrible one. I mean one listen to Symphony No. 3 will reveal a man who clearly had complete control of the orchestra. His Violin Concerto is probably the one work that gets the most dirt thrown at it from an orchestration point-of-view. It seems that a conductor has to work hard on the orchestral balances and keep from overpowering the soloist. But, I agree it's not well orchestrated, but it's still a splendid work and contains some exquisite violin writing.

Absolutely sublime!!! :)
You may also enjoy his Op. 131 Fantasy for Violin and Orchestra. Opinions are divided about it: surely not as memorable as the violin concerto, but contains exquisite sections for the violin!
 
#239 ·
I love the DG Bernstein too.
The re mastered DG twofer has the best sound.
 
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#240 ·
Another devoted apostle of Schumann here. I especially love his vocal works, not only the leider. His opera "Genoveva" despite what the critics have said about it over the years (how many critics have ever written a memorable note anyway) contains much wonderful music, as does his "Scenes from Goethe's Faust", "Das Paradies und Die Peri" and "Der Rose Pilgerfahrt". Please explore this music.
 
G
#241 ·
Yet another Schumann devotee here. I got hooked several years ago and have collected everything he wrote, often in many different versions.

I liked the article by Tom Service. It's so nice to read a piece like this by someone who seems genuinely to know what he's talking about, rather than a load of often quite ignorant criticism that sometimes one finds in some other places.

I have all of Service's recommended versions of Symphony No 2, except for the Abbado version. Nor am I familiar with the VPO/LG version, as mentioned by others, but guess that's also very good.

However I do have three more versions as well, all based on recommendations I heard from radio broadcasts. I can't pretend that I notice a big difference between any of them, but I guess that my favorite would be the version by Norrington/Stuttgart Radio SO, which I find to be nicely crisp, bright, lively and clear.

Schumann is definitely among my top 10 favorite composers.
 
#242 ·
Michel Block plays Robert Schumann (O.M. Records International, Dallas). Oh, man, this is a great, poetic rendering of Schumann! The liner notes say it all: "What he is telling us...we were innocent children once, and we too carried this child into "adulthood"...and we too, like Schumann, fell once upon a time in love with Love and then with the object of love...we too walked arms outstretched into that land...So we can, and shall, go on hearing him with a tear, and a constriction in our hearts that will move us deeply and cause us ineffable "pain"...He did, indeed, die for these, our "sins"..." Yeah, recorded at Indiana University, that's what alerted me, so much good modern music has emerged from there...
 
#244 ·
Recently, revived in my memory was the Fantasie in C Major. I really do enjoy Schumann's style, though I've also heard that he was a schizophrenic.... I know that near the end of his life Schumann went a little, well, I don't want to say crazy, though that he was a schizophrenic I haven't know before this! In any case, I cannot help feeling terrible for the composer when the Brahms/Clara affair is mentioned. Also, how about those two destroying most of Schumann's last works? I find this ridiculious! Schumann was too great for that.
 
#245 · (Edited)
Schumann died in an asylum (Endernich) after a failed suicide attempt. It has been posited that he had bipolar disorder (not schizophrenia), but others say he may have died of syphilis picked up when he was at university. The very sad story is that Clara was forbidden to make contact with him by the doctors, and he seems more or less to have given up on life. Everyone was acting for the best, but so sad...

Edit: It is known from letters that Clara and Brahms had feelings for each other, but not whether they consummated an affair, and nobody doubts Clara's devotion to Robert. Clara was over ten years older than Brahms, who was a friend of Robert's too, and he gave Clara a lot of help with the children while Robert was in the asylum. Brahms had a lot of girlfriends but never married. Clara took up the life of a concert pianist.

An excellent discussion of these biographical problems can be found in Michael Steen, The Lives & Times of the Great Composers, Cambridge, 2003*

'There has been much speculation as to the reasons for Schumann's condition... Dr Richarz' papers recording his view that Schumann was suffering from the final stage of cerebral neurosyphilis were only made public in 1994. Schumann died with syphilis, but whether he actually died of it is less clear. ... It seems possible that he may finally have died from self starvation, perhaps from despair at the prospect of never being let out, perhaps because of revulsion at the treatment and the diet: it is known that there was an epidemic of suicides by self-starvation at Endernich at one stage.' - Steen page 417

Final PS - Myself, I'm with Vaneyes on this one. See the post below.
 
#248 ·
I've got an unremarkable Naxos recording of Schumann's Piano Concerto, very nice. Last Spring I bought a two CD set of Kubelik's version of all four symphonies. These are terrific, I really enjoy listening to them. A decade ago I played second violin in the fourth symphony. I've never been a big fan, it's only recently I gave him some more time and consideration.

I don't know anything about his violin concerto. Does anyone know anything of this piece?
 
#249 ·
I've got an unremarkable Naxos recording of Schumann's Piano Concerto, very nice. Last Spring I bought a two CD set of Kubelik's version of all four symphonies. These are terrific, I really enjoy listening to them. A decade ago I played second violin in the fourth symphony. I've never been a big fan, it's only recently I gave him some more time and consideration.

I don't know anything about his violin concerto. Does anyone know anything of this piece?
It's gaining in popularity, as people look for "new works" from the Masters. ;) I like Kremer/Muti (EMI).

OT, but another often overlooked piece is Lalo Cello Concerto. I like Chang/Pappano for this, also on EMI. :tiphat:
 
#257 ·
"I am affected by everything that goes on in the world...and then I long to express my feelings in music." -Robert Schumann

Yeah, that's the ticket! Emotions, feelings! Although I usually speak here in more objective terms, I am compelled to say how much I was affected by listening to Schumann's Symphony No. 4 in D minor, op. 120 yesterday. After it was over, I felt as if I had passed through an emotional wringer. Weak, fragile, and drying my tears. Yes, I wept. The second movement is always what gets me. After that sad little theme, there is a chordal progression that really gets to me, with the sustained tonic note under it. Not the theme itself, but the solemn chords which follow. There's something to grasp onto in every movement of this, though...and the whole thing builds to a magnificent climax at the end.
Schumann, as he said above, had a strong desire to communicate, and that's what makes him one of the greats. How tragic his life was, and the story of him throwing himself into the river is heart-wrenching. His piano music is wonderful as well, if you can get a sympathetic reading without too much bombast. This is poetry, delicate, and fragile as the man was. The emotion and tenderness conveyed is what makes it work for me.
 
#258 ·
Especially these days, I appreciate his music a lot. When I was young, I had a hard time grasping his musical ideas, but as time went on, and I matured, I grew very fond of Schumann's music.

And these days, perhaps because of some tragic events in my life, through which I am still battling, I am even more interested than usual in Schumann's compositions.
 
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