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Thread: Johann Sebastian Bach

  1. #376
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I shall hunt out a performance of the Eroica where someone’s put the fun in the funeral march!
    So what do you mean by this, that the Chaconne only sounds this way because performers believe it is a funeral march? You can substitute the Chaconne in my example for the B minor prelude and fugue from the WTC book I or any number of minor key works. Sure there will be some that are more ambiguous than others, but the minor/major quality plays a big role.

  2. #377
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Possibly some confusion has arisen from the fact there are two aspects to musical keys, the specific pitch of the tonic, and whether the key is major or minor. The first aspect of keys is the part that is quite subjective in terms of differing key characteristics ie. - E Major vs. F Major (most people without perfect pitch could not differentiate these two keys just by listening) the second aspect has a much more noticeable quality ie - E major vs. E minor, there is a very striking aural difference between these latter two keys.

    I do agree that elements of performance such as articulation, phrasing and rubato etc. have a bigger impact on the mood or character of a piece than the first aspect of musical keys (the tonic note), but not the second (major/minor).

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Possibly some confusion has arisen from the fact there are two aspects to musical keys, the specific pitch of the tonic, and whether the key is major or minor. The first aspect of keys is the part that is quite subjective in terms of differing key characteristics ie. - E Major vs. F Major (most people without perfect pitch could not differentiate these two keys just by listening) the second aspect has a much more noticeable quality ie - E major vs. E minor, there is a very striking aural difference between these latter two keys.

    I do agree that elements of performance such as articulation, phrasing and rubato etc. have a bigger impact on the mood or character of a piece than the first aspect of musical keys (the tonic note), but not the second (major/minor).
    While I generally agree with all this, I also think it should be added, that it only applies to equal tuning, where different modes have the same tone color. In mean tone temperament it would be possible even to a relative untrained ear (because of the different tone colors) to distinguish between E major and F major at least so far, that they would be experienced as being different. But it demands a very trained ear to experience the same modes as being different in the most advanced mean tone modifications like Kirnberger's.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I shall hunt out a performance of the Eroica where someone’s put the fun in the funeral march!
    You know Beethoven wrote two small piano pieces and called them "Lustig" and "Traurig". Lustig is in minor mode, and Traurig in major mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    I have not come across a version of the Chaconne where the minor key section sounds bubbly and cheerful,

    I wonder what you think of Mortensen


  6. #381
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I wonder what you think of Mortensen
    Actually I really enjoyed listening to this transcription, the piece was beautifully played. You've done well to provide this example to demonstrate your point, to show just how much the mood of a piece can be affected by the performance. Indeed this interpretation makes the work seem lighter and bouncier than any other I've listened to. That said I think the minor key section still has a gravitas and seriousness that is perceptible underneath this use of phrasing Mortensen employs that is inescapable due to Bach's use of harmony.
    Last edited by tdc; Aug-02-2019 at 22:48.

  7. #382
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    In my hunt for a dark and eerie sounding Italian Concerto I found this CD, it’s the sort of thing that streaming is good for. In the sarabande of the French Suite, they really made me sit up and listen.

    D183BAEF-9348-407A-8391-DF7223D2518B.jpg. 88575112-CB13-46CB-872B-A4F6412310BE.jpeg

    Pierre Hantai recorded The Italian Concerto a few years ago, and from the point of view of affect of the first movement, I think it’s strange and slightly disturbing, but it may just be me. Maria Tipo’s another a bit like that I think, unfortunately I can’t find either the Hantai or the Tipo on YouTube, which is a shame because I’m not sure we’d share the same response, it would be interesting to see.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Aug-03-2019 at 08:49.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    "That's all Folks!"

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  10. #384
    Senior Member Ras's Avatar
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    Speaking of Bach transcriptions - I stumbled upon a transcription by baroque violinist E. Onofri of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in d minor BWV 565 for solo violin.
    Love it.
    Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?

    BachOnofri.jpg
    "I only have a hunch in what I've become expert." - Leonard Cohen

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  12. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ras View Post
    Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?

    BachOnofri.jpg
    Working through this may come up with something

    https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Arran/L-Violin.htm
    Last edited by Mandryka; Aug-03-2019 at 17:53.

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  14. #386
    Senior Member Ras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Working through this may come up with something

    https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Arran/L-Violin.htm
    Thanks Mandryka
    That looks like an interesting website.
    "I only have a hunch in what I've become expert." - Leonard Cohen

  15. #387
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    Ras asks, "Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?"

    Hi Ras--I have that Onofri disc, and like it, too. He's one of my favorite period violinists. The only other violinist I know that has transcribed Bach's organ music for the solo violin is Andrew Manze, who made his own transcription of the Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565:



    Given how many parts there are, I expect the organ works are extremely difficult to transcribe & play on a single instrument, especially a violin. But Onofri and Manze have managed to pull it off, & amazingly so.

    Otherwise, there are plenty of fine transcriptions of the organ works for chamber ensembles (& orchestras). I especially like the 6 Trio Sonatas myself:

    https://www.amazon.com/Six-Trio-Sona...1GJRMTG13PW9KP
    https://www.amazon.com/Trio-Sonatas-...s=music&sr=1-1

    And of course there have been many transcriptions of the organ works for solo piano (esp. if you count the WTC as organ music), most notably by the likes of Ferruccio Busoni and Alexander Siloti, & others; as well as transcriptions of Bach's violin works for the piano, such as the famous Chaconne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqHZE1ko4MA. I've long enjoyed the way pianist Emil Gilels plays Siloti's transcription of the Prelude in B minor, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu06WnXlPCY

    Pianist Vikingur Olafsson also plays a transcription of the Organ Sonata No. 4, BWV 528 on his recent award winning Bach album for DG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mymWYonUUs.

    Wilhelm Kempff also used to play his own transcriptions of Bach, which are some of his best Bach recordings, IMO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPkN...olfpuM2DHhMKJ2

    It's possible that a violinist has played the Busoni & Siloti transcriptions as a encore, but no one comes to mind at the moment.

    Oh yes, violinist Janinie Jansen has recorded Bach's 15 Two & Three Part Inventions for keyboard, BWV 772/786, but not on a solo violin, as she needed help from Maxim Rysanov and Torlief Thedéen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujOb...JEC5p_Cn_OWYP5

    That's all I can come up with. Maybe others will know more.
    Last edited by Josquin13; Aug-03-2019 at 20:56.

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  17. #388
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    https://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub6/Tomita%20UB6.pdf

    2011 Paper by Yo Tomita on WTC2 here. "The Implications of Bach’s Introduction of New Fugal Techniques and Procedures in The Well-Tempered Clavier Book Two"

  18. #389
    Senior Member Ras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josquin13 View Post
    Ras asks, "Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?"

    Hi Ras--I have that Onofri disc, and like it, too. He's one of my favorite period violinists. The only other violinist I know that has transcribed Bach's organ music for the solo violin is Andrew Manze, who made his own transcription of the Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565
    Thank you for the recommendations Josquin13 - some of them are new to me - some I know - I didn't know the Manze transcription.

    I loved that Andrew Manze transcription of Bach's Toccata and Fuge - amazing it can sound like that on a violin. Yes, it's the excentricity and oddity of it that appeals to me: wow can that be done on a small violin. (Like the first time (still wet behind the ears) I heard Bach Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin I couldn't believe that was just one violin playing!).
    "I only have a hunch in what I've become expert." - Leonard Cohen

  19. #390
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    A response to TalkClassical voting Romantic as their favorite period. Bach: "This is how I intended them to be played, but I didn't think anyone would understand... so I just wrote 'for organ'."





    Last edited by Ethereality; Sep-14-2019 at 02:49.

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