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Edward Elgar

60K views 281 replies 88 participants last post by  Neo Romanza 
#1 ·
What do you think of the man?

The highlights for me are the symphonies, concertos and minature works, although there is so much more this composer has to offer.

Was he the saviour of British music, or just another link in the chain?

Debate opened! Enjoy!
 
#2 ·
I rather like some of the works I have heard composed by Elgar, although they aren't many.

Of course, his Cello Concerto, Enigma Variations and Pomp & Circumstance March.

Yesterday, I heard his Violin Sonata in E minor for the first time, and really enjoyed it.

That's the extent to what I've heard of Elgar so far. I still need to hear his symphonies and more chamber music.
 
#12 ·
For me, Britten is the weaker composer because his talent for melody is poor
Interesting, I think his vocal works bear witness against it.

If my notice is right, here in the middle Europe, Britten is consider to be the greatist English composer. Elgar isn't performed very frequently and his works aren't familiary known for common concert visitors (of course with exception of Cello concerto). That's why I have heard to only few his works yet. But I have his cello concerto with du Pré and J. L. Webber and also Enigma variations with VPO and Gardiner and saw some videos on the youtube and I like it very much...especially Nimrod is so wonderful piece of music, unbelievable. It corresponds with my nature. So I'm going to find his other works soon, surely.
 
#201 · (Edited)
I highly disagree here and I know this post is an older one, but I've got to say that one listen to Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, The Apostles, The Kingdom, The Spirit of England, The Music Makers, or Sea Pictures reveals that Elgar had an incredible facility for writing for the voice, which, in my opinion, far outshines any other British composer. Britten shouldn't be ignored and he did, indeed, compose some superb music for voice, but they don't match the melodic genius of Elgar's works. In my opinion of course.

This said, RVW was no slouch either when it came to writing for voices. His Five Mystical Songs, On Wenlock Edge, A Sea Symphony, Serenade to Music, Five Tudor Portraits, Dona nobis pacem to name a few are magnificent.
 
#8 ·
Absolutely love his cello concerto. I listen to it almost everyday. It's just beautiful and moving. A good contrast to shostas Cello concerto which I listen to nearly everyday as well :p
 
#10 ·
The Second English Musical Renaissance which brought to light composers such as Herbert Howells, Vaughan-Williams, Gustav Holst, Charles Villiers Stanford, John Ireland, Frank Bridge, William Walton and many others somehow evolved parallel to Elgar and not building upon him (at least historically, due to this tradition being an academic one where as Elgar was self taught). Musically however I think the SEMR would be much the poorer if it were not for the unsung heroic foundation of Elgar's music. If you like Elgar then you might try some Howells, particularly the 'music for Strings' CD recently released by Chandos which contains some masterpieces.
 
#11 ·
Elgar is among my four or five favourite composers, seriously. He probably is the greatest English composer, but I wouldn't put RVW, Britten or even Tippett aside.

His music is in fact terribly melancholic, as was he himself. But I like melancholic music. For example, Elegy for Strings, Sospiri, Cello Concerto...

Symphonies and concertos rule, but what about his chamber works? I think they're perhaps Elgar at his most profound. Both Adagios of the String Quartet and the Piano Quintet, and the final movement of his Violin Sonata.
 
#13 ·
Elgar's music has been hijacked by the political right, similar to the British National Party/National Front/sundry Nazis purloining the Union Jack. Look at this huffing and puffing last year from the Daily Telegraph:

The decision to refuse the grant has reignited concern that Elgar's music is being blacklisted by the arts establishment because its inherent patriotism is regarded as a throwback to Britain's imperial past.

Source
From the British National Party website:

With this [Land of Hope & Glory] he gave the country its unofficial second national anthem - for which the liberal-left have never forgiven him. It is therefore not surprising that outside of classical music circles the 150th anniversary of last month went almost unnoticed, not least by the Arts Council England, which refused to help fund any notable celebration including a contribution for ÂŁ174,000 towards a series of youth concerts.

BNP
So Elgar's a political hot potato, with the far-right claiming him as their own and the establishment, apparently, refusing to fund the old duffer's anniversary. Is that Elgar's fault? Yes and no. No, because he can't be held responsible for how Nazis behave now in relation to his music. Yes, because he chose to set the following words to music. Don't forget he was influenced by Wagner, Hitler's favourite composer.

Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned.
God make thee mightier yet!
On Sov'reign brows, beloved, renowned,
Once more thy crown is set.
Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained,
Have ruled thee well and long;
By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained,
Thine Empire shall be strong.

Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

Thy fame is ancient as the days,
As Ocean large and wide
A pride that dares, and heeds not praise,
A stern and silent pride
Not that false joy that dreams content
With what our sires have won;
The blood a hero sire hath spent
Still nerves a hero son.

The reference to extending the British Empire's boundaries refers to the Boer War, recently won at the time. So Elgar was celebrating the British military stealing land in Africa and helping establish the apartheid state. You can see why British Nazis like him.
 
#14 ·
When I went to London I also saw that he was on the back of one of the pounds. Charles Darwin and Elie the Fry were on the other two ... -.-
 
#15 ·
Disgusting! To make Elgar and his work a matter of politics! What in the world might he have to do with nazism? Those Englishmen really have some serious problems...

I personally am a liberal, a leftist, almost a Marxist. But I have no problem listening to Elgar. Even the words (which of course he didn't write) I don't find bad or evil or whatever. Isn't every other national anthem like this Land of Hope and Glory?

There's been and there always will be a very thin line between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism is a dreadful thing. Patriotism is just fine.
 
#16 ·
Disgusting! To make Elgar and his work a matter of politics! What in the world might he have to do with nazism? Those Englishmen really have some serious problems...

I personally am a liberal, a leftist, almost a Marxist. But I have no problem listening to Elgar. Even the words (which of course he didn't write) I don't find bad or evil or whatever. Isn't every other national anthem like this Land of Hope and Glory?

There's been and there always will be a very thin line between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism is a dreadful thing. Patriotism is just fine.
:S Would Croatia be a country without nationalism? Are you a croat?
 
#17 ·
Ha! Croatia a country without nationalism! Good one! :D

No, of course there's a lot of it here. I still think it's very bad. Black people, Chinese, Roma etc. aren't popular at all. I mean, most of the people are normal, but there is always a minority of primitive ******** who find it hard to be human.
But I didn't mean all Englishmen by 'those Englishmen'. I have nothing against the British. You can be sure of it - I'm quite of an anglophile in fact. :)

And yes, I am a Croat.
 
#18 ·
Land of Hope and Glory is rolled out in Britain once a year. Here it is from 2007. Patriots and nationalists sing the words of the middle verse four times (at 2:55, 4:54, 6:10 and 6:54) becoming more excited each time. The camera cuts from London to the North of England to a blonde girl with a bosom packed into a Union Jack t-shirt.



Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

I get two main messages from those words: (a) God's an Englishman and (b) it's A Good Thing for the British Empire to spread wider and wider. Imagine if a bunch of Germans were singing those words, once a year, four times, with increasing excitement, demanding Lebensraum. Or Serbs. Or - with the greatest respect - Croats. Hasn't there been a spot of trouble in the Balkans with various groups (a) thinking God is on their side and (b) seeking to spread their bounds 'Wider still and wider'?

Poor old Elgar. See how he's been hijacked? The British, now a highly multi-ethnic society and with no empire left, are split on whether such hijackings are desirable.
 
#20 ·
Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

.
Everything is relative...from another point of view this is beautiful patriotic song...It is typical for nationalist and other groups that they find new and hidden meanings in things in order to express their opinions in legal way...it is very typical. Elgar has no responsibility for that.
 
#24 ·
I love The Dream of Gerontius, the Cello Concerto and the Violin Concerto. I like some of the shorter pieces like Sospiri, Elegy for Strings, Pomp & Curcumstance No.1 and Salut D'Amour also - the guy could definitely write a good tune.

I'm struggling somewhat with the Symphonies though - I don't dislike them, but I don't truly love them either. Maybe I just haven't heard the right recording(s). But I have them on a recording from Andrew Davis and I'm told that he's a wonderful Elgar conductor, so it's probably just me.

As for Elgar being the best British british composer - I don't know. I'm not familiar enough with many of the key works of those that would be considered the other main contenders to have an informed opinion. I'm a bit surprised that nobody so far has mentionned Purcell though. I don't know if he's "the best", and maybe it's hard to compare a baroque composer with late romantic or modern composers - but he's definitely important enough to be counted among the elite group of British composers IMO.
 
#28 ·
I love The Dream of Gerontius, the Cello Concerto and the Violin Concerto. I like some of the shorter pieces like Sospiri, Elegy for Strings, Pomp & Curcumstance No.1 and Salut D'Amour also ... I'm struggling somewhat with the Symphonies though.
I wonder what it is about the symphonies that's causing the problem? I'm sure the purists would be horrified at what I'm about to say, but have you tried tackling them just one movement at a time, and picking and choosing? For instance, the slow (second) movement of the second symphony might, I think, more closely resemble the aspects of Elgar you like, than the rest. Just a shot in the dark, really, but maybe worth trying.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I think I may find myself posting quite a lot in this thread, and it's really hard to know where to start. I was sixteen when I first heard the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, which music seemed to emanate from a place that was at once deeply rooted within me, yet also seemed to imply that there was some place 'out there' that I needed to find. So I was bound to make my way to the Malvern Hills eventually (though I grew to know a lot more of his music before that), and at first when I arrived there I thought 'this is the place'. And in a strictly biographical sense, of course, the Malvern Hills and countryside are, indeed, 'the place'. But over time I realised that 'the place' was really all of England, and Malvern was a kind of symbolic focus for that. And then again, later, I realised that this 'England' was really only a kind of focus for something still deeper and more profound. (I think it's Gimli, isn't it, at Helms Deep, who stamps on the ground and says something like 'this place has strong bones'? Well, this idea of 'England' seemed to be like that.) So this 'England' itself was not so much a place as an idea - like Blake's 'Albion'. It has nothing to do with nationalism; it's partly, but by no means wholly, to do with patriotism; it has something to do with landscape, but also more than just landscape - something to do with roots, and belonging, and certain kinds of ideals (noble and heroic ideals, some of them), mingled with a kind of indefinable sadness.

And the point about Elgar is that his music is like an admission ticket into this place/idea. So which, I now force myself to ask, is the best ticket? The symphonies are wonderful - I've loved them for decades. The chamber works, so very very different, yet so recognisably Elgar, mark another high point. The cello concerto, the violin concerto - sheer magic, and on and on I could go (and probably will at some other time). But the work by Elgar that I would choose above all others is The Spirit of England (most perfectly and powerfully represented by the Alexander Gibson/Scottish National Orchestra recording with Teresa Cahill as soloist).

It's a vocal/choral work lasting about half an hour. It's hardly ever performed, I think. I suspect the three currently available recordings sell poorly (though I don't know). But here's Elgar at his most profound. It may not be his greatest music in a technical sense - I'm not competent to judge that. But I believe it's his greatest work of art, in the broadest, most humanistic sense. It's based on three poems by Laurence Binyon, but the literal meaning of the words is really only a kind of rough guide to the meaning of the whole work, which expresses Elgar's deepest feelings about the anguish of war; the nobility of sacrifice; the despair created by the loss of thousands upon thousands of brave young men, and the sheer determination and need to come to terms with that and above all, to remember them appropriately; and the frightening mixture of beauty and pain that inhabits the making of music that deals with such profound thoughts and feelings. I find it impossible still, to listen to it without tears, and without feeling that this may be the most profound work of art I know.

If someone told me I could only listen to one more piece of music, (with silence to follow forever after), I'd choose Elgar's The Spirit of England to be that final piece.
 
#203 ·
Elgar seems to get a mixed reception and I've never understood why. I begin to assume it's the political / nationalistic element that turns people away. But this is something I never latch onto myself in the same way.
If I could put my feelings into words about Elgar, I don't think I would be able to better this post.
Although I've never been to the Malverns.

I think I may find myself posting quite a lot in this thread, and it's really hard to know where to start. I was sixteen when I first heard the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, which music seemed to emanate from a place that was at once deeply rooted within me, yet also seemed to imply that there was some place 'out there' that I needed to find. So I was bound to make my way to the Malvern Hills eventually (though I grew to know a lot more of his music before that), and at first when I arrived there I thought 'this is the place'. And in a strictly biographical sense, of course, the Malvern Hills and countryside are, indeed, 'the place'. But over time I realised that 'the place' was really all of England, and Malvern was a kind of symbolic focus for that. And then again, later, I realised that this 'England' was really only a kind of focus for something still deeper and more profound. (I think it's Gimli, isn't it, at Helms Deep, who stamps on the ground and says something like 'this place has strong bones'? Well, this idea of 'England' seemed to be like that.) So this 'England' itself was not so much a place as an idea - like Blake's 'Albion'. It has nothing to do with nationalism; it's partly, but by no means wholly, to do with patriotism; it has something to do with landscape, but also more than just landscape - something to do with roots, and belonging, and certain kinds of ideals (noble and heroic ideals, some of them), mingled with a kind of indefinable sadness.
My favourite Elgar works

Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Symphony No.2
Cello Concerto
In The South
Introduction and Allegro for Strings
Serenade for Strings
 
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#30 ·
I wanted to add a few extra details about The Spirit of England, and here they are.

Despite being one of Elgar's major works, this cantata is little-known and hardly ever performed. It's been suggested that if it had been titled For the Fallen rather than The Spirit of England it might have fared better in public perception. Indeed, if you're imagining something like the Elgar of the Pomp and Circumstance marches, you're way off beam. This is music both beautiful and harrowing; noble and proud, yet trying its utmost to keep despair at bay. Surprisingly, in view of its deep unfashionability, at the present moment there are three recordings available. One of them, in my view, is outstanding - namely, this one:



It's available on Amazon for a ludicrously low price, here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Choral-Works/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226851229&sr=1-1

None of the recorded versions are poor, but in this wonderful version Teresa Cahill, singing with the Scottish National Orchestra and Chorus under Sir Alexander Gibson, demonstrates an insight into the meaning of this music than none of the others can match.

Then there's this one:



This one won't break the bank either, though the second section ('To Women') has a tenor singing the solo role which doesn't work for me. Details available here:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7172

Lastly, there's the Hickox/Felicity Lott version on EMI:



Felicity Lott sings it beautifully, to be sure, but for my money misses the profound depths of meaning that are to be found in the Cahill/Gibson performance (above). It's available on Amazon here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B0000DB55B/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226851229&sr=1-5

The Spirit of England is based on three poems by Lawrence Binyon, the full texts of which can be found here:
http://albionsmusic.tripod.com/id18.html

And finally, here's the webpage provided by the Elgar Society, devoted to The Spirit of England:
http://www.elgar.org/3spirit.htm
 
#32 ·
Now you see, that's really interesting. Falstaff is very highly regarded, I know; and yet it's one of those extremely rare things - a major piece of music by Elgar that I've never really been able to warm to. It's a while since I last listened to it; I'll blow the dust off it and try again.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Was he the saviour of British music?
I see Elgar as a popular 'spokesperson' for what's referred to as a second English musical renaissance ('second', to distinguish it from the Tudor period), which began in the late 1800s. But it's the likes of Stanford, Wood and Parry that I credit with reviving English music and preparing the way, so to speak, for the greatness of Holst, Howells, Bax, Britten, Vaughan Williams, Tippet, Finzi and countless others who, for me, stand head and shoulders above Elgar.

What disappoints me most about Elgar - regardless of how much I enjoy some of his better-known works - is that I feel he lacked a unique voice. At times, you hear him sounding like Parry, then Stanford; even shades of Delius creep in. Many of his works seem to me littered with references to the music of those who went before him - despite the fact that he never studied composition with anyone.

I'm even prepared to venture that his lack of formal training may well have limited what he was able to achieve. Though of course, we mustn't dismiss what he did achieve. But to put him up there with Britten or Vaughan Williams? No, I think not.

FK
 
#38 · (Edited)
I see Elgar as a popular 'spokesperson' for what's referred to as a second English musical renaissance ('second', to distinguish it from the Tudor period), which began in the late 1800s. But it's the likes of Stanford, Wood and Parry that I credit with reviving English music and preparing the way, so to speak, for the greatness of Holst, Howells, Bax, Britten, Vaughan Williams, Tippet, Finzi and countless others who, for me, stand head and shoulders above Elgar.

What disappoints me most about Elgar - regardless of how much I enjoy some of his better-known works - is that I feel he lacked a unique voice. At times, you hear him sounding like Parry, then Stanford; even shades of Delius creep in. Many of his works seem to me littered with references to the music of those who went before him - despite the fact that he never studied composition with anyone.

I'm even prepared to venture that his lack of formal training may well have limited what he was able to achieve. Though of course, we mustn't dismiss what he did achieve. But to put him up there with Britten or Vaughan Williams? No, I think not.
I think Parry's sadly neglected symphonies, from the second onwards, are full of little proto-Elgar moments - though I've never investigated to what extent Elgar might have been directly influenced by them. Even so, and much as I love them, Parry's symphonies surely pale in comparison to the two great Elgar symphonies? Elgar's symphonies (to focus purely on them in this instance) have sustained me for a lifetime in a way that only the greatest music can do. But it would be pointless to embark on one of those 'which is the greatest composer?' debates, wouldn't it? I would really hate to put Elgar in the boxing ring with RVW, Parry, Stanford et al, and ask them to slug it out.

The business of whether he had a unique voice, however, needs some comment, I think, if only because I personally regard Elgar as the single most distinctive musical 'voice' I know. These things are very subjective (short of a technical analysis that I wouldn't be capable of), but it seems to me that whereas Parry (say) leans heavily on Brahms's shoulders much of the time, with his own voice sometimes pushing through that, Elgar goes much further. The influences of others seem to be synthesised, through Elgar, into something entirely new. You couldn't have Elgar without Wagner, for instance (and of course one could say the same about any composer and his influences), but it seems to me that the influence of Wagner has been used as bricks and mortar to make a different kind of building altogether.

I love Parry's music, so I don't actually want to make these comparisons; but I could never think of it as life-changing stuff, whereas my entire involvement with classical music and its potential began with, and developed, through Elgar. His music has been a constant and really quite profound lifetime companion, and if it were as lightweight as you suggest, I don't think that would have been possible. I'd have 'seen through it' by now.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I thought I'd continue the process of talking about some of Elgar's most unfashionable works by taking a look at Caractacus. Although I've loved Elgar's instrumental music almost as long as I can recall, for a long time I was resistant to his choral works. But when the barriers between them and me finally fell, they fell with a vengeance; and Caractacus was one of my earliest and most delightful discoveries.

Is it a work of great genius? I'm not competent to say, but I don't think so. Is it packed with great tunes? Yes. Is it full of drama and interest? Yes. Is it ever performed these days? I doubt it, though there are two recordings available, each as a 2CD set. There's the Charles Groves/Liverpool Philharmonic version on EMI Classics at an irresistible bargain price:



and then there's the Hickox/LSO version on Chandos:



I don't really have a clear preference myself, but you can't go wrong with the Groves, if only because it costs so little (but still comes with a booklet containing all the words). Among the delights awaiting you are Eigen's beautiful 'At eve to the greenwood, we wander'd away'; the haunting 'Thread the measure' of the druid maidens; and the highly controversial but magnificent finale - more of which later. There's also (looking at the downside for a moment) a tune which reminds me irritatingly of 'Oh My Darling Clementine'!

Caractacus, however, is a work that's capable of extending into your life in an extra-musical way, simply because we know so much about how Elgar came to write it, and exploring the landscape that inspired it brings all sorts of extra insights into one's appreciation of the music. The British Camp, so-called, at the top of the Herefordshire Beacon in the Malvern Hills, is an ancient hill fort that (legend has it) was defended by Caractacus against the Romans. Would it not be possible, Elgar's mother had asked him, to write something about that? Here's the camp, in the distance, towards the right (you can see the earthworks encircling the summit), viewed from the Worcestershire Beacon, looking south:



Elgar walked the hills and the surrounding countryside and in the course of his walking, came across a small cottage called Birchwood Lodge, set among woodland a few miles north of the hills. He rented it, and much of the woodland-flavoured music in Caractacus was written there, or inspired by the location. The cottage is still there, somewhat changed, but very recognisable:



A great deal has been said and written about the finale of the work, dismissing the libretto (written by H.A. Acworth, not Elgar) as jingoistic. Certainly some of the words are hard to take, from the vantage point of the 21st century, though much of the criticism stems partly from a kind of chronological fallacy (there's no point in criticising someone for being a man of his time), and partly from a misunderstanding of Elgar's conception of British Imperialism and the chivalric ideal. But if you really want to get to the heart of the matter, try doing what I did. Climb to the top of the British Camp at late afternoon, taking a portable player with you, and a recording of Caractacus, and watch the sunset, from the summit, while listening to the finale. If the breeze up there doesn't make your eyes water, the music will.

 
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