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Thread: When and whom question

  1. #16
    Senior Member Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread topic
    I second the motion for the previous question.

    Each "transition phase" is worthy of its own thread topic. I'll try to focus on Classical to Romantic and Romantic to "20th Century" (for lack of a better phrase... Bill Parker chooses to borrow from Bernstein and call it "The Age of Anxiety").

    Does anyone else think that Beethoven stepped more quickly through the door of Romanticism in his Piano Sonatas than in his orchestral works? That he was a nexus figure in that transition remains a consensus view...

    But- I think we should recognize Schubert's role in that tranformation. Like Beethoven, no significant Central European symphonist of the next half-century was free from Schubert's influence. The transformation from Schubert's Symphony 5 (which fans have said out-Mozarts Mozart) to the sound-worlds of his Symphonies 8 & 9 deserves highlighting.

    End stage Romanticism seems a more complicated affair. Most music-appreciation texts will mention the role of Wagner (specifically Tristan & Isolde) as part of the sapping that preceded the breach. To this I'd add Bruckner's 9th symphony, which upon audition sounds more "modern" than some early Mahler. Yeah... I'd say that Mahler, Schoenberg and Stravinsky are the "nexus figures" of the early 20th century. I've probably said this before, but "in my mind's ear"... the conclusion of Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht closes the door on the 19th century... and the trumpet fanfare of Mahler's Symphony 5 opens the door on the 20th.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by oompah View Post
    I might be new here, but are these types of responses really appropriate? Is this typical? Because they're downright mean. Sarcasm is not a useful answer to a legitimate question.

    Here's a kid who just wants some input for his own sake. Maybe he really doesn't know, maybe he's trying to do homework, maybe he's just wasting his (and our) time. But what's the harm in giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him a reasonable answer to a reasonable question?

    Threads like this only serve to propagate the perception that classical music fans are elitist, snobbish, impatient, and rude. That's why you see very few young people in symphony halls - if I were fifteen years old, would I really want to spend my evenings with crabby old farts?
    I quite agree. We should be a lot more sympathetic to kids who don't know anything and come here asking basic information. Instead of merely saying "welcome aboard" to newcomers, or saying "it's all blurred" in answer to complex questions, we should drop everything and provide a consultancy service for anything they may wish to learn about classical music. After all, places like Google can be very intimidating, can't they? As for sources like Wikipedia on the sources of the Romantic School music, well perish the thought as Wikipedia is way too difficult for many of the types who come on here these days.

    So yes, let me agree with you again, that we should be as accommodating as possible to questions of this nature, even though the same question must have been asked and answered at least a dozen times on this forum alone, let alone all the others. We should also ignore the fact that lots of such questions are raised by people who are never seen again. But hey, what's got that to do with it as we don't want to tax the poor young things, do we?

    As for Beethoven being the alleged progenitor of the Romantic School, that isn't actually true. It was von Weber, Paganini, Rossini and Schubert who were the leading exponents of the new school, even though some of their earlier output was classical in mould and remained so. Beethoven's musical architecture remained very largely "classical" although one or two pieces had a programmatic theme (eg Pastoral Symphony).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    Beethoven's musical architecture remained very largely "classical"
    Just like Vaughan-Williams, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Raff...

  4. #19
    Senior Member Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
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    (squints, :blinks:, puts on [corrective lenses], :blinks:, looks again)... hi, "Nicola,"... Welcome back!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    We should be a lot more sympathetic to kids who don't know anything...
    Feh, that's not nice. Nobody who comes here "doesn't know anything."
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    As for sources like Wikipedia on the sources of the Romantic School music, well perish the thought as Wikipedia is way too difficult for many of the types who come on here these days.
    Objection, your honor!... calls for a conclusion based on assertions not in evidence. Yes, I could (and have) wiki'd and internet searched "Schubert," but are you willing to consider the possibility that I might find what you have to say about his music more interesting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    As for Beethoven being the alleged progenitor of the Romantic School, that isn't actually true.
    Well, that's one point of view. There are dissenters, e.g.:

    "The Sixth (symphony) is a harbinger of Romanticism. One of the earliest examples of 'tone painting'..." (Wendy Thompson's Illustrated Book of Great Composers.)

    "Like C.P.E. Bach, Beethoven was a transitional figure, but between different eras- the Classical and the Romantic. We put him here [i.e.: in the 'Classical Composers' section] because the tendency in recent years has been been to stress his roots with Haydn... his affinities with Mozart... not to mention his worship of Handel. This view, I think, is to the good, but it does not compel us to abandon the view that Beethoven was also the first great Romantic composer." (Bill Parker- Building a Classical Music Library.)

    "Beethoven occupies a pivotal position between the classicism of the eighteenth century and the new Romantic age, which his music did so much to create." (Peter Gammond's Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Classical Music.)

    "The Romantic period in the arts began about 1825... Musically, it started with the late works of Beethoven and the compositions of Weber and Schubert..." (Classical Music, Phil Goulding).


    ...to cite merely the four most convenient books to hand. Just lets us know that there are things about music that can be well explored independent of internet searches.

    I LOVE THIS PLACE!
    Last edited by Chi_townPhilly; Mar-19-2008 at 19:08.
    The hardest knife ill us'd doth lose his edge. Shakespeare- Sonnet 95

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    Thankyou all for showing interest in replying to a simple question,especially Chi-town/philly and Rachovsky..(by the way I live in London and the weathers dam cold at the moment,will still be cold from monday onwards so advise warmer clothing!)I didn't find any replies condersending or sarcastic,don't know what all the fuss was about,some of you should smoke a spliff and chill!
    Im asking this 'transition' period in music as it has always interested me and just wanted to see if their were any composers I havn't heard about.When I heard Shoenbergs Chamber Symphony for the first time, it really sounded if music had just changed from what went before it ,into something ongoing in change leading a few years later to his 5 orchestral pieces.
    What I probably found from your replies is that no Composer could'nt compose music without influence from who were before them and their piers.No one in history was born with a totally new type of music world within them.

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