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Thread: Classical music's biggest charlatan

  1. #61
    Senior Member Dimace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsMusica View Post
    John Cage. Interesting coincidence that "charlatan" is the exact term that a very good friend of mine (a very fine composer) and I used in a discussion about Cage that we had earlier today.
    I will give you a point here. Many times I was wondering what Cage was doing... His texts are good, but his music most of the times* a no go.

    * with ''s''...
    Alles Vergängliche ist nur ein Gleichnis; das Unzulängliche, hier wird's Ereignis;
    das Unbeschreibliche, hier ist's getan; das Ewig-Weibliche zieht uns hinan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerian View Post
    I think Ludovico Einaudi is a charlatan. I don't believe that anyone could have a full musical training and actually believe that that sort of music is worth writing.

    Schoenberg considered Koussevitsky a charlatan, because he couldn't read scores and apparently had assistants who played the piano reduction of a new work multiple times until he could conduct it himself.
    Koussevitsky was a virtuoso double-bass soloist, the best of his time, before becoming a conductor. Even though he couldn't score-read it doesn't mean he was a charlatan.

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    Talking

    erroneus post . . . . . . . .
    Last edited by Roger Knox; Oct-25-2018 at 22:45.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    "Italians are all charlatans." --Mozart in a letter to his father
    “Three Italians sitting around a kitchen table without food or drink is a sure sign of trouble.” —A.A. Freda
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Apr-23-2019 at 07:57.
    "That's all Folks!"

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    Senior Member JosefinaHW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    “Three Italians sitting around a kitchen table without food or drink is a sure sign of trouble.” —A.A. Freda
    In another thread we talked about Expressionism in music and once most have screamed their primal scream we can then move on again in the great tradition of CM. I didn't forget about looking for an image--I was thinking of a painting, I just haven't found one. In this process of listening to The Ring and Wagner's other operas, I don't think an image would do that transition or rebirth justice. it's going to be conveyed by a new opera or opera cycle!

    Do I expect this opera to be composed in my lifetime? No. I catch pieces of the Postmodernism thread in the New Activity listing. If most of the posters on there are reflective of some majority of the population, then it's going to take a long time for the transition. Does that bother me? Not any more and that's one amazing feeling of freedom and joy! As I'm almost certain, you already know that.

    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Apr-23-2019 at 06:45.


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    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JosefinaHW View Post
    In another thread we talked about Expressionism in music and once most have screamed their primal scream we can then move on again in the great tradition of CM. I didn't forget about looking for an image--I was thinking of a painting, I just haven't found one. In this process of listening to The Ring and Wagner's other operas, I don't think an image would do that transition or rebirth justice. it's going to be conveyed by a new opera or opera cycle!

    Do I expect this opera to be composed in my lifetime? No. I catch pieces of the Postmodernism thread in the New Activity listing. If most of the posters on there are reflective of some majority of the population, then it's going to take a long time for the transition. Does that bother me? Not any more and that's one amazing feeling of freedom and joy! As I'm almost certain, you already know that.

    Shostakovich and Mahler represented the primal scream within traditional harmony. For me Schoenberg, especially his chamber music, was a move to resolve this conflict and seed new forks or branches in the process. But this is not a typical view.

    Those branches have grown rather dense and convoluted since Schoenberg, largely confined to the marginal darkness, but I think they will find their way into the sunlight sooner than later. Modern music is gradually closing a circle with the renaissance and baroque... the primal scream phase was medieval.

    My choice for Charlatan of the Day would be Jeggie, as one Amazon reviewer calls him. I just can't stand his interpretations....
    Last edited by philoctetes; Apr-24-2019 at 18:11.

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  10. #67
    Senior Member JosefinaHW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    Shostakovich and Mahler represented the primal scream within traditional harmony. For me Schoenberg, especially his chamber music, was a move to resolve this conflict and seed new forks or branches in the process. But this is not a typical view.

    Those branches have grown rather dense and convoluted since Schoenberg, largely confined to the marginal darkness, but I think they will find their way into the sunlight sooner than later. Modern music is gradually closing a circle with the renaissance and baroque... the primal scream phase was medieval.

    My choice for Charlatan of the Day would be Jeggie, as one Amazon reviewer calls him. I just can't stand his interpretations....
    Warm Greetings, Philoctetes! I am not sure if we are understanding one another correctly. (It really hasn't been that long since I logged back in and I've missed 757 posts! That's sort of mind boggling; but ultimately it is a good sign of the health of the forum and I always welcome signs of that. I point this out because musically, with a minor exception or two, I have been focused on Wagner's Ring--and I am enjoying that, but in the process my mind is very focused so I'm missing what ever else is going on here.

    What I was saying re/ Expressionist music and a new Ring Cycle might be along lines that you quite possible will greatly dislike if I have not expressed myself clearly. This topic came up in a thread in the Music Theory section entitled something to the effect of Bach's chord progressions. If you are interested enough you might want to scan through that thread where my posts begin. By way of a little background, I'm not sure that those who are very fond of some 20th century music would agree that I am calling quite a bit of that music Expressionistic. I did not mean it as a great compliment at all. I am a great fan of Expressionist painting/drawing, and value to a great deal the need for an artist to shout out at other viewers his/her pain, suffering, sense of meaninglessness, sense of purposelessness, rage over all the s--t in the world.

    Expressionistic music (or what I and possibly Larkenfield consider expressionist music) is music that wants to explore the ugliness, the nastiness, the waste of a great deal of what occurred in the 20th century and injustices that have occurred throughout human history. There is order in Schoenberg's music and I admire him for exploring and creating something new. But for me it was an experiment and a failed one. I am working on music theory and harmony right now, so I do not claim to be an expert and I am STILL VERY OPEN to re-evaluating some 20th music. I was thinking on a much larger scale of society and religion and culture as a whole. I think we are in tremendous need of respect for some beliefs and values and structures that many would call traditional. BUT, I also think that there are many people/groups who have been treated terribly by some aspects of traditionalism. All those groups and people should be able to voice their rage for a time, as a catharsis, and then we move on and consider what is valuable in our traditions because I think there is a great deal of value there.

    I don't know if I have been clear, but I wanted to open a conversation with you because I wonder if I'm a bit more conservative that you and I did not want you to be misled. I will say this; I am always open to examine and change my current thinking or behavior if I think it needs to be changed.

    All My Best!


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    Quote Originally Posted by TurnaboutVox View Post
    No, but I could start with someone...

    Rosemary Isabel Brown (1916 – 2001) was an English composer, pianist and spirit medium who claimed that dead composers dictated new musical works to her. I remember the fuss made about her in the mid-70's. She certainly fooled some people, though maybe herself too as she seemed genuinely to believe that dead composers dictated works to her. Now there was someone who wanted to 'be' Beethoven, or rather, Liszt!

    Here's her obituary:
    http://www.theguardian.com/news/2001...dianobituaries
    I strongly suspect that this won't be an especially enlightening thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiyatsiya View Post
    I strongly suspect Xender Discord Omegle that this won't be an especially enlightening thread.
    Rosemary Isabel Brown (1916 – 2001) was an English composer, pianist and spirit medium who claimed that dead composers dictated new musical works to her. I remember the fuss made about her in the mid-70's. She certainly fooled some people, though maybe herself too as she seemed genuinely to believe that dead composers dictated works to her. Now there was someone who wanted to 'be' Beethoven, or rather, Liszt!
    Last edited by kiyatsiya; May-20-2019 at 18:42.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Schumann by Rosemary Brown:



    In the style of Chopin:

    Last edited by Larkenfield; May-21-2019 at 14:08.
    "That's all Folks!"

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