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Thread: Contemporary "art" music

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post

    Wait a minute! Modernism died? Wow. I wonder if all those people I'm going to see in Paris next week know that. Man, that weekend of modern music.... Awkward.

    And then in May in Prague. More embarrassment. All those people--composers, performers, listeners. I... I don't know how to break it to them. Are you sure?
    Maybe this is more of a PM thing, or for a different thread, but..who are you going to see in Paris and Prague? (or is it friends rather than concerts?) Also I've been meaning to ask after you've said you travel quite a a bit if you've seen Ensemble Intercontemporain live.
    Last edited by SimonNZ; Mar-24-2014 at 09:44.

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  3. #152
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    some guy - that last post of yours! Wine came out my nose! And I wasn't even drinking wine! (OK I was - so what). You've won TC today

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  5. #153
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    I guess we all know very well that Boulez, Cage, Babbitt, Stockhausen, Oliveros (we can label them however you want; the semantics disinterest me) have been pillars of (some of) the musical establishment(s) for some time now. They may not often suffer brow-raising CD sales or dominate the "current listening" threads on classical music message boards (which would delegitimize them anyway), but they get tenures at the elite universities because (we) the elite know whom to respect and whom to scorn.

    I figure we can afford to be honest about this because to the true believers financial success remains suspicious.

    Among the great ironies and great strengths of capitalism are that it transforms radicals, would-be rebels into pillars of an establishment. This requires multiplying establishments, but where a market of any size exists that multiplication presents no problem.

    Therefore the competition for pity does not impress me. Just as (and because) there is evidently more than enough money for lots of different kinds of composers to do their thing, there is enough pity to distribute among them for not being more famous with the filthy masses who dare not to "get" their work.

    (There, I shudder to reflect, but for the grace of some god go I.)
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

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  7. #154
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    Ok, that was supposed to be sarcastic and even in a way funny, but seriously, though I enjoy (forgive me, I realize "enjoy" is supposed to be a bit taboo for such sublimity, but I cannot help it, at heart I'm still a fairly simple fool) contemporary music easily and genuinely, when I behold the arrogance of its advocates I am occasionally glad not to be considered among them.

    Their attitude may be ultimately defensive, it may be justified, it may be whatever, but it is bad rhetoric, bad strategy - it is, that is, if the goal really is to promote the music rather than to build up a sense that it cannot be enjoyed by the scum (I can afford to be honest here because I am not speaking for myself) who don't already "get" it.

    I am no less arrogant in my own way of course, but I'm glad not to be of that party, no matter what music I enjoy.
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

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  9. #155
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    Yeah science, damn the universities, but just what happened in the old C20? Universities began to offer sweet money to composers who had good academic credentials for teaching and whatnot. And guess what - many of them did! Because they're composers and ruddy well should know a lot about music! And Paris Conservatoire before that! The evil Cesar Franck ad Gabriel Faure! Because that was bad news for music forever! And we all know how PC prize winners like Emil Paladilhe and Victor Masse and Maurice le Boucher have gone on to dominate music all because they won the Pricks of Rome.

    And I'd say, el capitalismo aside, people do get a bit more mellow with age. That's all G, dog. Shooting for the establishment sounds like a conspiracy theory. Is it possible some of these chaps are rewarded for exemplary gifts and ability? Boulez is pretty flash but he probably just wanted to get cool wheels, a sweet crib and holiday in the Maldives, right? Wake up sheeple

    BTW - look on the current listening thread. I reckon there's a fair whack of contemporary stuff on there alongside a bunch of other musics and I don't see that any deligitimisation (what is that anyway?) of anything occurring. Don't see you much on current listening however - what have you got on right now?

    Edit: just spotted your "you mad bro" vibe - nice one
    Last edited by dgee; Mar-24-2014 at 11:26.

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  11. #156
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    So, most advocates of contemporary music are arrogant but so are you (by your own admission), and your saving grace is that your arrogance favours a 'different' party?


    Quote Originally Posted by science View Post
    Ok, that was supposed to be sarcastic and even in a way funny, but seriously, though I enjoy (forgive me, I realize "enjoy" is supposed to be a bit taboo for such sublimity, but I cannot help it, at heart I'm still a fairly simple fool) contemporary music easily and genuinely, when I behold the arrogance of its advocates I am occasionally glad not to be considered among them.

    Their attitude may be ultimately defensive, it may be justified, it may be whatever, but it is bad rhetoric, bad strategy - it is, that is, if the goal really is to promote the music rather than to build up a sense that it cannot be enjoyed by the scum (I can afford to be honest here because I am not speaking for myself) who don't already "get" it.

    I am no less arrogant in my own way of course, but I'm glad not to be of that party, no matter what music I enjoy.

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  13. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lope de Aguirre View Post
    So, most advocates of contemporary music are arrogant but so are you (by your own admission), and your saving grace is that your arrogance favours a 'different' party?
    That's a good point, and even if I could evade the way you've phrased it, I intended to cede more or less the same point with my final comment.

    I don't think I have a party, though. I'm not on the anti- side (I like the music), I'm not on the pro- side (it's ok with me if you don't, and I like other musics too). If I'm a partisan of anything, I'm a partisan of affecting (at least) humble tolerance of different tastes. I personally enjoy the diversity very much. I just wish we could be nicer to each other. That's no doubt foolish, but what the heck. I'm a fool, as I well know.
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgee View Post
    Yeah science, damn the universities, but just what happened in the old C20? Universities began to offer sweet money to composers who had good academic credentials for teaching and whatnot. And guess what - many of them did! Because they're composers and ruddy well should know a lot about music! And Paris Conservatoire before that! The evil Cesar Franck ad Gabriel Faure! Because that was bad news for music forever! And we all know how PC prize winners like Emil Paladilhe and Victor Masse and Maurice le Boucher have gone on to dominate music all because they won the Pricks of Rome.

    And I'd say, el capitalismo aside, people do get a bit more mellow with age. That's all G, dog. Shooting for the establishment sounds like a conspiracy theory. Is it possible some of these chaps are rewarded for exemplary gifts and ability? Boulez is pretty flash but he probably just wanted to get cool wheels, a sweet crib and holiday in the Maldives, right? Wake up sheeple

    BTW - look on the current listening thread. I reckon there's a fair whack of contemporary stuff on there alongside a bunch of other musics and I don't see that any deligitimisation (what is that anyway?) of anything occurring. Don't see you much on current listening however - what have you got on right now?

    Edit: just spotted your "you mad bro" vibe - nice one
    Let's not pile on Chordalrock, though. We can talk to him (I guess) without talking down to him, especially if it's basically facts that we're talking about (who/what is "the establishment") rather than just tastes/opinions (let alone semantics).
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

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    Remember Lope - it's the mere act of liking contemporary music that is inflammatory. It's a much cosier situation when we can all assume that we share our lack of understanding - and sometimes dismissal or worse :-( - of anything that sounds a bit yucky. If you like contemporary music you must at least be deferential and gentle and not publicise the fact lest someone be upset and never, NEVER, suggest that someone who doesn't "get it" is in any way not open to new experiences or has conservative expectations or is just a crashing dimwit - ;-) jokes, jokes!!!!!

    Whatever you do, don't normalise liking contemporary music! Remember that a lot of people feel "very special" for liking the "great masters" when nearly everybody in the whole world finds them hella boring. Don't suggest there's things they haven't "got" yet ;-)

    Hey - someone's gotta be the modernist bad cop round here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgee View Post
    some guy - that last post of yours! Wine came out my nose! And I wasn't even drinking wine! (OK I was - so what). You've won TC today
    Seconded. No contest: Prize entry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgee View Post
    Remember Lope - it's the mere act of liking contemporary music that is inflammatory. It's a much cosier situation when we can all assume that we share our lack of understanding - and sometimes dismissal or worse :-( - of anything that sounds a bit yucky. If you like contemporary music you must at least be deferential and gentle and not publicise the fact lest someone be upset and never, NEVER, suggest that someone who doesn't "get it" is in any way not open to new experiences or has conservative expectations or is just a crashing dimwit - ;-) jokes, jokes!!!!!

    Whatever you do, don't normalise liking contemporary music! Remember that a lot of people feel "very special" for liking the "great masters" when nearly everybody in the whole world finds them hella boring. Don't suggest there's things they haven't "got" yet ;-)

    Hey - someone's gotta be the modernist bad cop round here!
    There used to be a few members here who really had this attitude, but I haven't seen them active for awhile. I think you're safe. You can relax now. You've become the oppressor, whether you realize it or not. You've got to let people not like the music you like.

    (Edit: Let me clarify this. One of the points of someguy's post, and your and PetrB's celebration of it, was to humiliate Chordalrock. I'm sure we all know this, but it needs to be said explicitly to make this all clear. More edit so you can discern what I really mean: Your collective hateful attitude towards people like him gives me a hateful attitude towards you. In my case it's not going to translate into hating the music, but in some other people's cases it will, and does. If that's not your goal, change your rhetoric. If it is your goal, well done all three.)

    I suppose I'm too defensive in a way in that I've been on the other side of the elitist attitudes a few times. But still, even if I am a bit sensitive because of those experiences, no matter what pride I have in whatever, I really hope I don't have (let alone express) that particular sort of attitude, in any way.
    Last edited by science; Mar-24-2014 at 12:03.
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

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  23. #162
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    This doesn't suggest:

    This reminds me why I don't like violin concertos: they're about the playing. They're not about the music, they're about art, which is to say the art of playing and not the art of music alas.

    A reasonable discussion is occurring

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgee View Post
    Remember Lope - it's the mere act of liking contemporary music that is inflammatory. It's a much cosier situation when we can all assume that we share our lack of understanding - and sometimes dismissal or worse :-( - of anything that sounds a bit yucky. If you like contemporary music you must at least be deferential and gentle and not publicise the fact lest someone be upset and never, NEVER, suggest that someone who doesn't "get it" is in any way not open to new experiences or has conservative expectations or is just a crashing dimwit - ;-) jokes, jokes!!!!!

    Whatever you do, don't normalise liking contemporary music! Remember that a lot of people feel "very special" for liking the "great masters" when nearly everybody in the whole world finds them hella boring. Don't suggest there's things they haven't "got" yet ;-)

    Hey - someone's gotta be the modernist bad cop round here!
    A very close second prize, by a nose, to Someguy's first prize.

    Congratulations to the winners.

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  26. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonNZ View Post
    Maybe this is more of a PM thing, or for a different thread, but..who are you going to see in Paris and Prague? (or is it friends rather than concerts?) Also I've been meaning to ask after you've said you travel quite a a bit if you've seen Ensemble Intercontemporain live.
    In Paris, it's the Presences electroniques festival at Centquatre. With music by some people who are also friends.

    In Prague, it's visiting friends. Who put on an annual festival called Echofluxx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post
    What makes you think I was talking to and or about you?
    I don't know. Maybe that mysterious thing called context. Plus mentioning Sibelius.

    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post
    You're not the only one shaking your head at this point. Modern music buffs have had all the power in the institutions for decades? Wow. I had no idea. I wish I'd known that. Man, what I could have done with that power. And I didn't even know.

    In fact, I don't know any modern music buffs who now have or who have ever had any power in any institution. I think you're confusing us with someone else.
    Uh, what? Why would you deny serialism and modernism were the main thing, to the exclusion of other things, in the academia in the 1960s and around the decades surrounding it? Even today, contemporary styles are expected of composition students in, um, like 100% of the time if you study composition on the highest levels. You think this was different around the mid-century?

    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post
    Wait a minute! Modernism died? Wow. I wonder if all those people I'm going to see in Paris next week know that. Man, that weekend of modern music.... Awkward.

    And then in May in Prague. More embarrassment. All those people--composers, performers, listeners. I... I don't know how to break it to them. Are you sure?
    Modernism died. I don't mean the music that had already been composed doesn't get performed at all. Same as Baroque died, doesn't mean we don't listen to it. Simply means it doesn't exist as a movement worth mentioning anymore and all the big name composers moved on from archetypal modernist stuff like serialism to more approachable composition.

    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post
    Really. Who?
    There's a ton of composers who scrapped serialism and started to use more approachable styles: Rautavaara, Lindberg, and Penderecki are just some of them, all some of the best known contemporary composers in the classical music world.

    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post
    Do you have any idea what's really going on in the world?
    In all honesty, reading messages like yours, sometimes I wonder if I've accidentally entered some sort of alternative universe.
    Last edited by mmsbls; Mar-24-2014 at 18:23. Reason: Removed inappropriate comments

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