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Thread: Bruckner Symphony Cycles

  1. #136
    Senior Member NLAdriaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Yes you are a person of minuscule talent by the side of Karajan - then, aren't we all!
    By the side of Carlos Kleiber, HvK was a person of small talent, then aren't we all

  2. #137
    Senior Member Bourdon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    By the side of Carlos Kleiber, HvK was a person of small talent, then aren't we all
    After drinking many glasses of Belgian beer I might agree with you.Kleiber had great respect for the skills and talent of mr Karajan as we all know.

  3. #138
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    By the side of Carlos Kleiber, HvK was a person of small talent, then aren't we all
    Not at all. In fact Kleiber himself recognised Karajan's talent. He appeared at Karajan's grave saying, "He was the one I admired most." They had a mutual admiration society going. If Karajan had produced as small a number of recordings as Kleiber we'd haven doubt viewed him with the same bated breath. The fact is Karajan capitalised on his talent - Kleiber woefully underused his. It's the old thing that along with talent you need temperament and hard work.
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-21-2019 at 13:00.

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    Karajan was a very individualistic conductor. He is one of the conductors I can recognize from the first few bars when one of his recordings comes up in random shuffle. I was once pitch correcting an historical recording of the first act of Die Walkure, so I lined up a section of the overture with Karajan's recording. The whole tonality was different. It was the same music, but he had woven the sound of the orchestra together in a way that it was impossible for me to pitch the older recording. The melodies and harmonies were balanced so they flickered back and forth. Hard to describe, but the sound was gorgeous. If I hadn't compared side by side, I might not have noticed what he was doing. He was playing the notes on the page, but he was balancing them in a totally unique way. I really like that.

    I think the whole anti-Karajan thing is just internet "common knowledge". Some people on internet forums cobble their opinions together from cherry picking other opinionated posts they read. They become an opinion magpie, building a hodgepodge nest of opinions that don't hold together cohesively and certainly aren't based on actually listening to the music.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jul-21-2019 at 22:50.

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  6. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    Big budget boxes full of great performances generally don't exist.
    You aren't paying attention. Big boxes generally consist of the back catalog material that has survived as top recommendations for decades. The Living Stereo boxes are jam packed with top picks. And you can focus on great instrumentalists and conductors like Heifetz, Horowitz, Bernstein or Szell and pick up their entire output for a dollar a disk. Even the super budget labels like Brilliant Classics have top recordings, particularly in lesser heard Baroque music, and they keep updating their Mozart, Bach and Beethoven boxes to improve them even more.

    The one drawback of the big boxes is that they require a sizable initial investment, usually between $50 and $100. If you only have five or ten bucks in your pocket, they aren't for you. But if you want to explore music you might not have otherwise considered, big boxes are a great way to do it.

    The idea that most recorded classical music is mediocre is hogwash. The standards of interpretation and performance from the past half century or so of recording are insanely high. Large volume does not necessarily mean poor quality. We just lived though a golden age of recorded music. It's all there for the picking. And there are smaller orchestras today producing excellent recordings. Just because they don't have the brand name of a BPO or a NY Phil, it doesn't mean that they can't produce great recordings, particularly of niche repertoire like you see on Brilliant Classics.

    The CD format is dying. Normal people don't buy CDs any more. If you prefer to stream music from a community library like that, I'm sure it's fine with you. But I prefer to be able to directly compare performances and analyze performance styles. Big boxes give me the opportunity to widen my scope and hear alternative versions of specific works, and to dig down into the work of a specific performer and figure out what makes him tick.

    There is a lot more to be learned from listening to ten different versions of a symphony or string quartet or concerto than there is listening to the same rosette bedecked one over and over. A composition is a jewel with many different facets. You can't truly appreciate it looking at it from just one angle. Different interpretations reveal different things in a work. That took me a couple of decades to learn myself, but it is the truth.

    The world of great music is an ocean. There's more than any one person can take in in a lifetime. If you limit yourself to just the things you're familiar with, you are limiting yourself. There's too much you don't know about, but you should.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jul-21-2019 at 22:45.

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  8. #141
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    Apparently, this week is the 30-year anniversary of Karajan's death. I just got that CD he did of Bruckner's 7th symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic, his final recording. I'm going to listen to it sometime soon in his honor.

  9. #142
    Senior Member NLAdriaan's Avatar
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    You obviously don't understand a word I am saying. No problem, as the Ocean of recordings is big enough for all of us to swim our way. I just won't drown in the endless streams of mediocrity, but prefer to surf on the outstanding waves

  10. #143
    Senior Member DarkAngel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAngel View Post
    Love HVK for Bruckner, the Presto UK 24/192 FLAC downloads of symphonies 4-9 is only $18.50.....amazing bargain! (so cheap I'm thinking it must be a mistake, get them now!)


    Tidal now has this available in MASTER series 24/96 streaming......listening now

    Someone posted above that these are step above the current CD masters, I also agree, the glassy thin soundscape and sharp brass crescendos are now full bodied natural tones with improved bass response while still keeping excellent detail level......more reasons to love this even more
    Last edited by DarkAngel; Jul-22-2019 at 13:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    I just won't drown in the endless streams of mediocrity, but prefer to surf on the outstanding waves
    Or wade in a tide pool at the shore.

  13. #145
    Senior Member NLAdriaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Not at all. In fact Kleiber himself recognised Karajan's talent. He appeared at Karajan's grave saying, "He was the one I admired most." They had a mutual admiration society going. If Karajan had produced as small a number of recordings as Kleiber we'd haven doubt viewed him with the same bated breath. The fact is Karajan capitalised on his talent - Kleiber woefully underused his. It's the old thing that along with talent you need temperament and hard work.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbc..._kleiber.shtml

    This is what the professionals say, to which our 'miniscule opinions' are irrelevant.

  14. #146
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbc..._kleiber.shtml

    This is what the professionals say, to which our 'miniscule opinions' are irrelevant.
    Yes I had read it. Interesting then Kleiber jibbed at taking up a major conducting post. As I said, talent is not enough. Greatness requires application. If you only conduct when your fridge is empty then you limit your greatness. As I have said, if he had recorded as much as Karajan, I am certain people would be more critical of his output, fine though much of it is. As it is, rarity breeds a mystical appreciation. In any case your post in no ways contradicts what I said. They were both great conductors and both admitted each others greatness. Kleiber himself would have been the first to put down your opinion of Karajan because he recognised great conducting. Same with all these guys. They might have been tremendously egotistical themselves but they weren't so stupid as not to recognise genius.
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-22-2019 at 09:37.

  15. #147
    Senior Member NLAdriaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Yes I had read it. Interesting then Kleiber jibbed at taking up a major conducting post. As I said, talent is not enough. Greatness requires application. If you only conduct when your fridge is empty then you limit your greatness. As I have said, if he had recorded as much as Karajan, I am certain people would be more critical of his output, fine though much of it is. As it is, rarity breeds a mystical appreciation. In any case your post in no ways contradicts what I said. They were both great conductors and both admitted each others greatness. Kleiber himself would have been the first to put down your opinion of Karajan because he recognised great conducting. Same with all these guys. They might have been tremendously egotistical themselves but they weren't so stupid as not to recognise genius.
    I just don't follow your requirement that only endless uncritical output and hard labour justifies talent. I think that self critical output is an essential part of genius. Did not all major composers rework their compositions many times? A bit more self critic and a bit less focus on $$$ would have improved the output of HvK. And a bit less insecurity would likely have increased Kleiber's output.

  16. #148
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    I just don't follow your requirement that only endless uncritical output and hard labour justifies talent. I think that self critical output is an essential part of genius. Did not all major composers rework their compositions many times? A bit more self critic and a bit less focus on $$$ would have improved the output of HvK. And a bit less insecurity would likely have increased Kleiber's output.
    I didn't say that. I said that talent is only fully realised with hard work. You take someone like Solti who probably (by his own admission) had a fraction of the talent of people like Karajan or Kleiber, but made up for it somewhat with tremendous hard work. Kleiber actually sometimes appears more critical of others than he was of himself! Like when storming out when a orchestral player questioned one of his decisions.

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    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I didn't say that. I said that talent is only fully realised with hard work. You take someone like Solti who probably (by his own admission) had a fraction of the talent of people like Karajan or Kleiber, but made up for it somewhat with tremendous hard work. Kleiber actually sometimes appears more critical of others than he was of himself! Like when storming out when a orchestral player questioned one of his decisions.
    Can you offer me a source on that...? (Solti's "admission" that Karajan and/or Kleiber were an order of magnitude more "talented" than himself). I find it hard to believe he would say something like that.

  18. #150
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Can you offer me a source on that...? (Solti's "admission" that Karajan and/or Kleiber were an order of magnitude more "talented" than himself). I find it hard to believe he would say something like that.
    "In my case, the entire learning process is slow because I have no visual memory. I cannot look at the score and absorb it, as Toscanini and Karajan were able to do...........[so] they have a tremendous advantage over those of us who are forced to spend so much time studying every note of every score." (Solti on Solti p. 214)

    "He [Karajan] was, obviously, a man of genius, capable of absorbing musical scores like a sponge; his repertoire was enormous." (Solti on Solti p. 193)

    It's interesting that John Culshaw implies the same in his memoirs that no one has worked harder than Solti even if some were more talented
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-22-2019 at 10:46.

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