Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Help with method: to learn a piece and handling frustration.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Elaryad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Arrow Help with method: to learn a piece and handling frustration.

    Hello to those who are reading this,

    I love and play stringed instruments.
    I want to know what is the method you use to learn a piece. That's because I get bored easily. It's stupid and I hate myself because of it but it's true. It's hard to get motivated, to have a structure (like a schedule) and say "let's practice this part, first slow, then a little more fast, etc.".

    When I'm practicing technique, like scales, lots of scales, chords, speed exercises, etc., I love it and I have patience because it's a challenge and I get excited. But when it comes to learn a small piece, or a hard one that takes ages to play well (and even more ages to master) I get frustrated because I usually like the pieces I want to learn...

    People, is this normal? What can I do about this?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    arkansas/missouri
    Posts
    1,428
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    learn one tune that is really hard to master, then preform it. everything else will be easier.

    dj

  3. #3
    Senior Member Elaryad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I would call it "the extreme solution" I am not an advanced player, I would say "barely intermediate". Tunes that are "really hard to master" are not for me at this moment, but I could try a hard one (in my perspective, of course). But I think that doesn't solve my problem... developing a piece hard to master takes a process that I cannot endure because... I don't know, I don't have an explanation; and during my performances (not public performances) I'm always making mistakes. I think I freak out easily and then lose my nerve.
    Last edited by Elaryad; Aug-16-2008 at 00:29. Reason: adding more info.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    arkansas/missouri
    Posts
    1,428
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    you must play through the mistakes. once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.

    you may be surprised how many of the audience do not know it was a mistake.
    if they could play it, they would be up there on stage doing so.

    dj

  5. #5
    Andante
    Guest

    Default

    Yes, when you make a mistake you must keep going without missing a beat, don't pause or hesitate, reason is that when this happens and you are playing with others a slight hesitation will really foul every one up. Regarding learning new pieces it is self discipline take it bit by bit, slowly, repeatedly, untill it falls into place, once you have learned the piece then you practice it and build up to the proper speed.
    Do you have any means of recording yourself ? then play back and make a duet of it, this makes it more interesting.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    525
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaryad View Post
    I don't know, I don't have an explanation;
    You just get bored. I sometimes go through the same and I don't think there's a remedy for that. The fact that you play works you like very much can aggravate the situation. The complex process of learning a piece can turn that beloved work into a clinical experience, and that's when you may feel the piece has lost its magic.
    I say you should go ahead with the piece in question, keeping in mind the final objective is to achieve a successful execution, express what the composer had in mind when composing it.


    you must play through the mistakes. once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.
    An awful suggestion this one is. Elaryad, please disregard these remarks by David. You should never run through the work, if there's a mistake and you recognize it you should work on it.

    once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.
    What about the piece you are playing? An error in execution may not be correlated with the immediate future notes you are about to deliver, but what about the composition as a whole? A musical work is not a cascade of subsequent notes, some of which you can omit or play wrong because you are capable of putting up with your mediocrity. There's an aesthetic production, and the composer's idea, which you should honour.


    you may be surprised how many of the audience do not know it was a mistake.
    if they could play it, they would be up there on stage doing so.
    That's nonsense. A few decades ago, the most effective way to agglomerate famous pianists was to organize a solo concert of Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (you would then get the highest measure of pianists per square foot, in that theatre).

    Martha Argerich attended the famous Horowitz comeback concerts (in which he would play Rach3), and she was seated next to... Nelson Freire.

    I know Elaryad is not to be compared with high profile international artists, but the merits of your words, David, are questionable.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Elaryad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    YsayeOp.27#6, I understand your opinion about missing notes, I think it happens and it's not good. Rostropovich had missed notes and improvised because he played by memory. But no, that's not a thing you go through passively, you've got work on your mistakes. I know perfection is a very difficult thing to achieve but professional musicians sometimes have that bitter experience once in a while
    You told about "complex process of learning a piece". I don't see anyone saying that this process it's complex and sometimes frustrating, and you're so right. I take lots of time learning a piece, and sometimes I abandon it.

    Andante, I have means of recording myself, but as I told, I miss notes during my playing. It's not a nice thing to listen to. I just use the recording system when I want to record something I composed for future reference. But I make mistakes in my own works too.
    :angry:

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    arkansas/missouri
    Posts
    1,428
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    YsayeOp.27#6:

    hehehe...i see we disagree.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes. -

    'What about the piece you are playing? An error in execution may not be correlated with the immediate future notes you are about to deliver, but what about the composition as a whole? A musical work is not a cascade of subsequent notes, some of which you can omit or play wrong because you are capable of putting up with your mediocrity. There's an aesthetic production, and the composer's idea, which you should honour.'

    if you want to let the note you miss in measure 7 ruin your playing for the remainder of a 20 minute piece, go ahead.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    you may be surprised how many of the audience do not know it was a mistake.
    if they could play it, they would be up there on stage doing so.

    'That's nonsense. A few decades ago, the most effective way to agglomerate famous pianists was to organize a solo concert of Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (you would then get the highest measure of pianists per square foot, in that theatre).'

    what i said is not nonsensical one bit, and you should know better.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    you must play through the mistakes. once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.

    'An awful suggestion this one is. Elaryad, please disregard these remarks by David. You should never run through the work, if there's a mistake and you recognize it you should work on it.'

    you do not know the difference in playing through a mistake and just running through a piece, which you decided to claim i advocate.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    'but the merits of your words, David, are questionable.'

    you do NOT know whereof you speak

    now our new member has two opinions to consider. best of luck, elaryad!

    dj

  9. #9
    Senior Member Elaryad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    1. A performer makes one mistake on a specific measure during a public performance. After that, he will need to continue and hope it doesn't happen again.
    2. During a rehearsal if the performer misses a note, he should stop and play everything again to observe if it happens again, why did it happen, and fix it.

    I think you're talking about different things here. The mistakes during a performance and the mistakes during study and practice.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    525
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaryad View Post
    Andante, I have means of recording myself, but as I told, I miss notes during my playing. It's not a nice thing to listen to.
    Since you already have the recording device, I say you should use it more often. If not for the omitted notes, for the possible mistakes on expression and dynamics: it's easy for you to distinguish, when playing, how fingering mistakes drove you to miss notes; but how you do with the expressive part of the work is a bit harder. If you have the chance to listen to yourself through recordings you may realize that what you think you are playing (or, what you have the impression to be listening to, when playing) is not what effectively comes out from the action of your fingers. Is as if during the performance or study of a work, you listen to the sound you expect to produce (which is in only in your head) and not the real deal. This happens to a lot of students, and it's completely normal: we are just learning, but we have to deal with a lot of things at the same time: reading the notes, the indications on expression and fingerings, thinking in what is about to come, and listening to ourselves.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    525
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by david johnson View Post
    what i said is not nonsensical one bit, and you should know better.
    Yes, it is. You are supposing the audience is formed by ignorants, and you expect Elaryad to rely on that assumption so that he can remain calm after committing mistakes. It's not about the skills of listeners to recognize when something went wrong. It's about your ability, as a musician, to express what the composer wrote, in a meaningful way.
    Following this line of thought, if you play alone at home you are free to turn the piece in whatever blasphemy you want, just because nobody is listening.
    You should always aspire to maximum quality, even if you are playing for granma and a bunch of awful geronto-aunts.
    Last edited by YsayeOp.27#6; Aug-16-2008 at 16:26.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    525
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaryad View Post
    I think you're talking about different things here. The mistakes during a performance and the mistakes during study and practice.
    Right. From your initial post it follows your questions are about studying, not performing. And my answers were composed with that in mind. I can't say the same about David's.

  13. #13
    Andante
    Guest

    Default

    Gilels was at a recording studio in the days when a movement was recorded all in one hit, at the completion of a particular movement the recording director told him that he had played a couple of wrong notes and asked if he would mind recording it again to which Gilels answered “ Of course if you want, but it wont be so nice” I think the point here is that a wrong note is of secondary importance to the performance as a whole.

    The main thing to do when you have made a mistake even when practising is to keep going if you get into the habit of stopping it is a very hard habit to break, this is one of the first things my Teacher insisted upon.
    When the piece is finished that is the time to back and correct your mistake, also mistakes are frustrating we all make them but it is most satisfying when you eventually get it right.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    arkansas/missouri
    Posts
    1,428
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YsayeOp.27#6 View Post
    Yes, it is. You are supposing the audience is formed by ignorants, and you expect Elaryad to rely on that assumption so that he can remain calm after committing mistakes. It's not about the skills of listeners to recognize when something went wrong. It's about your ability, as a musician, to express what the composer wrote, in a meaningful way.
    Following this line of thought, if you play alone at home you are free to turn the piece in whatever blasphemy you want, just because nobody is listening.
    You should always aspire to maximum quality, even if you are playing for granma and a bunch of awful geronto-aunts.
    horsefeathers, y.
    you're spinning other's comments like a political analyst on tv.

    dj

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    arkansas/missouri
    Posts
    1,428
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaryad View Post
    1. A performer makes one mistake on a specific measure during a public performance. After that, he will need to continue and hope it doesn't happen again.
    2. During a rehearsal if the performer misses a note, he should stop and play everything again to observe if it happens again, why did it happen, and fix it.

    I think you're talking about different things here. The mistakes during a performance and the mistakes during study and practice.
    yes.
    always perform as much as possible, even in the practice room.
    make the technical exercises as musical as possible.

    dj

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •