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Hitler and Wagner

64K views 513 replies 51 participants last post by  mmsbls 
#1 · (Edited)
I found this film fascinating. I don't know whether anyone has posted it before but here it is.
This German documentary by Michael Kloft was originally broadcast in 2002. It explores the complex relationship between National Socialism and the work of Richard Wagner, Hitler's favourite composer. It also examines the personal contacts between Hitler and the Wagner family at the time.

 
#425 · (Edited)
Woodduck holds Wagner in esteem because Wagner represents to him the 'new atheist modern Man' who shows how 'genius' and great art masterpieces can show what Man is capable of achieving. To him, and many other Wagner advocates, Wagner represents the apotheosis of modern Humanism, of an atheism which has no need for religion, and, in Wagner's case, uses mythology instead. This is evident in the preceding exchanges, which clearly revealed attempts to 'tone down' some of Woodduck's rhetoric on religion.

The correspondences between Wagner and Naziism must remain generalities, but both Wagner's and Hitler's outlooks on religion and Man are products of nineteenth century thought in Europe, especially Germany, where the new Humanist/atheist outlook was replacing traditional religion.

Therein lie the general correspondences, and apparently Woodduck finds these general correspondences worth defending, even if they do not specifically "prove" that Wagner's art contained direct or specific elements of antisemitism; he is defending atheism and Humanism.

The term 'antisemitic' should not even be applied in this analysis, as this can not be 'proven.'
 
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#426 ·
Woodduck holds Wagner in esteem because Wagner represents to him the 'new atheist modern Man' who shows how 'genius' and great art masterpieces can show what Man is capable of achieving. To him, and many other Wagner advocates, Wagner represents the apotheosis of modern Humanism, of an atheism which has no need for religion, and, in Wagner's case, uses mythology instead. This is evident in the preceding exchanges, which clearly revealed attempts to 'tone down' some of Woodduck's rhetoric on religion.
Whatever one makes of it, I've never seen Parsifal as a culminating atheist manifesto.
 
#433 ·
Wagner's description of Parsifal to King Ludwig, "This most Christian of works"
 
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#449 ·
I wonder. Would those other listeners (like me) who can listen to Wagner's music apart from being influenced by his prejudices as a human being, would also buy tickets next week to a complete Wagner Ring conducted by James Levine, knowing what you now know about how he was carrying on? If no, why not? You can listen to Wagner's music without outside influences. Can you do the same regarding James Levine's conducting going forward?

Of course, there won't be any "going forward" regarding James Levine. Purely hypothetical. Can one do the same regarding James Levine as one does for Wagner? Ignore their human failings and enjoy their talents as artists? Both pretty low on the human being scale. I wonder.
 
#459 ·
Everybody’s trying to second-guess Woodduck’s motivation! That’s pretty much a dry hole, since his issue is actually neurological. A Wagner fixation often accompanies the tertiary stage of a brainworm infestation, commonly contracted these days through an unfortunate choice at the sushi bar. The final stage usually follows quickly and can be recognized by an uncontrollable enthusiasm for André Rieu CDs.

Before that happens, which may be momentarily, I just want to let Woodduck know how much I have enjoyed his posts all these years. He will be remembered.
 
#464 ·
Everybody's trying to second-guess Woodduck's motivation! That's pretty much a dry hole, since his issue is actually neurological. A Wagner fixation often accompanies the tertiary stage of a brainworm infestation, commonly contracted these days through an unfortunate choice at the sushi bar. The final stage usually follows quickly and can be recognized by an uncontrollable enthusiasm for André Rieu CDs.

Before that happens, which may be momentarily, I just want to let Woodduck know how much I have enjoyed his posts all these years. He will be remembered.
Lucky for me, I live in a progressive state that permits physician-assisted suicide. I will be able to avoid the Andre Rieu stage.
 
#477 ·
Did it ever occur to anyone that the reason Wagner is frowned upon in Israel is simply because his operas are "too Germanic' and loaded with all that mythology? If so, that would be a form of 'reverse racism' or just good old revenge for the events of WWII. After all, Israel was formed out of the events of WWII...
 
#482 ·
I have to concede Mr. Shields is on to something, much as I usually despise this kind of analysis. Above, I ridiculed Wagner's essay Judaism in Music as a disingenuous, clumsy and silly device that makes an indirect but poorly-disguised argument for the innate superiority of his own musical and dramatic creations by creating a contrasting mythical straw-man of ugliness and badness -- Jewishness. That which is German and non-Jewish is superior. Wagner's art is German and non-Jewish. Therefore -- the reader can complete the syllogism. Never mind that there is nothing about Mendelssohn's music that could remotely be considered Jewish in any way. Wagner's anti-Semitism is a myth created by him to confirm the greatness of his own art, which is all he cares about. So his art isn't influenced by his anti-Semitic ideas; It's the other way around. As Shields puts it:
The racist aspects of Wagner's anti-Judaism are undeniable. But if we want to find a connection between this anti-Judaism and his music we must look elsewhere, to aspects of it that are both older and (as Rothstein says) "more profound." Rothstein's evocation of "the metaphysics of anti-Semitism as heard in Wagner's music" comes closer to the heart of the matter, though it, too, requires an important qualification. Such a phrase might be taken to imply that Wagner's anti-Semitism is the primary thing, and that it somehow infects his metaphysics, which in turn cast their shadow over his music. Yet I believe that the case is precisely the reverse.
So maybe the strongest link between Wagner and Hitler is that both were skilled propagandists who were able to use the general anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany to advance their own agendas.
 
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#490 ·
I would imagine it may have something to do with the way some people manage to write a load of seemingly relevant material on Wagner whilst taking a few digs at religion and misconstruing Christianity.

This thread is really misplaced here. It has little to do with politics and religion in the way it affects music. It's primarily all about a very small group of members' hatred of Wagner and making a big meal of it for reasons best known to themselves. It's tedious stuff for the vast majority of members who aren't interested in this kind of thing.
 
#487 · (Edited by Moderator)
Like all previous threads covering similar issues concerning the alleged anti-Semitism in Wagner' music, this thread has largely regurgitated all the same old arguments that have been made many times before. All we have had here is a list of assertions and futile exchanges involving many unanswered posts. A good example of this, as if any proof were necessary, is the non-response to the question posed by mmsbls at post #405.

Quite how either "side" expected to secure any kind of moral victory over the other is beyond me, as it is obvious that the position of those in each camp is firmly entrenched regardless of whatever arguments may be put forward. Most if not all of the previous threads of similar nature on Wagner have been closed for one reason or another. For some strange reason this one seems to be allowed to linger on and on, despite the fact that it has clearly run its course and has just been going around in circles for quite some time.

It seems to serve no useful purpose other to allow a tiny few number of members the satisfaction of taking pots shots at each other. Its educational value is little more than marginal. Far more reliable and comprehensive information can be very easily gleaned just by reading a few articles in Wikipedia on Nazism and Wagner, and then just follow a few links if more detail is required. It's all there, and a further advantage is that one can read all about it without being continually interrupted by a load of irrelevant comment that is often inserted in threads of this nature on forums like this.

Rather than continuing further in such fashion here, I would like to suggest that people who think there may any unfinished business that needs addressing should consider pursuing it in one of the "Groups". That way, they'll be able to get further into the finer points of expressing their hatred of, or possible adulation of, Wagner exercise their hearts content.[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
#489 · (Edited by Moderator)

Like all previous threads covering similar issues concerning the alleged anti-Semitism in Wagner' music, this thread has largely regurgitated all the same old arguments that have been made many times before. All we have had here is a list of assertions and futile exchanges involving many unanswered posts. A good example of this, as if any proof were necessary, is the non-response to the question posed by mmsbls at post #405.

Quite how either "side" expected to secure any kind of moral victory over the other is beyond me, as it is obvious that the position of those in each camp is firmly entrenched regardless of whatever arguments may be put forward. Most if not all of the previous threads of similar nature on Wagner have been closed for one reason or another. For some strange reason this one seems to be allowed to linger on and on, despite the fact that it has clearly run its course and has just been going around in circles for quite some time.

It seems to serve no useful purpose other to allow a tiny few number of members the satisfaction of taking pots shots at each other. Its educational value is little more than marginal. Far more reliable and comprehensive information can be very easily gleaned just by reading a few articles in Wikipedia on Nazism and Wagner, and then just follow a few links if more detail is required. It's all there, and a further advantage is that one can read all about it without being continually interrupted by a load of irrelevant comment that is often inserted in threads of this nature on forums like this.

Rather than continuing further in such fashion here, I would like to suggest that people who think there may any unfinished business that needs addressing should consider pursuing it in one of the "Groups". That way, they'll be able to get further into the finer points of expressing their hatred of, or possible adulation of, Wagner exercise their hearts content.
I'm sorry you didn't notice, or weren't impressed with, the parts of this thread where people have actually had fruitful discussion (I'd cite, for example, some exchanges among fluteman, Txllxt, myself and Faustian). If you didn't find anything useful in these exchanges, it's still possible that those involved didn't feel they were wasting their time.

It is not true that all the participants here are merely repeating things they've said elsewhere. Can you recall from any previous thread a detailed statement of the racial ideology of Nazism? I thought when I posted it that nothing could be more relevant to the thread topic. Admittedly, it was rather shockingly sad that the originator of the thread seemed entirely unimpressed, and basically told me to go write a thesis and not bother him with facts.

It's also a mischaracterization of the discussion to speak of "both sides." This is not a tennis match. A number of views have been expressed and argued, whether well or poorly. This subject is much too nuanced for a simple squaring off of "sides," although there is, as with many discussions, a noticeable division between those open to nuanced analysis and those who merely want to assert an "opinion."

Your recommendation that people just go to Wikipedia for information instead of seeking the experience of thinking and talking together is very peculiar. Why does anyone participate in any forum?

If you don't like what's being done here, you can always try to make the discussion better. You would surely be welcome. Meanwhile it would be fairer of you not to engage in "both-side-ism." Kindly take care to place blame for any problems in this discussion where the blame actually belongs.

Now don't interpret this as a defense of some of the obstructionist nonsense that's gone down in this thread and previous similar ones. You're completely right to point out that it exists. It seems to come with the territory, and no one loathes it more than I do. I don't know what the fix might be, short of a purge (but that sounds kind of Nazi-ish, so I withdraw the remark! :)).
 
#493 · (Edited)
Can't this thread just remain closed. I think it has fulfilled its purpose. I for one would be happy never to see the names Wagner and Hitler in the same sentence ever again unless it is to ask how Wagner's use of the leitmotif influenced Hitler's early operas?;)
 
#497 · (Edited)
I haven't joined in this discussion for a bit because of the extremely aggressive nature of some posts I was getting. I don't intend to waste my time on this, but my mind boggles that so much heat and words could be spent in defence of a composer who held such disgusting views. I've tried to discuss this with people before in other places and I have given up as it would appear the nature of the music blinds people to the nature of what the man was and what he was saying. But each to his own. Enjoy your Wagner. But don't think too deeply about it.
 
#499 · (Edited)

Why should anybody feel the need to attack Wagner, or defend him, for his views? He was a composer, and we may like his music or not. I have seen precious little evidence that his racial and political views had any bearing on his music.

For the rest, he is dead and gone. Our opinions of his non-musical views are totally irrelevant and change nothing, nor will they ever.
 
#501 · (Edited)
This thread was created over three years ago to allow a member to vent his prejudices against Wagner based on Hitler's fascination with this composer. The thread is so old that the youtube video referred to in the OP is no longer available. Even if it was, it makes no difference as the same weary old subject had come up at TC previously and all ended up with the threads being closed.

Despite the length of this thread, there has been hardly any real debate on the subject. The few posts that have been of any value have all come from the pro-Wagnerian camp, and have either been ignored, dismissed out of hand, or sidelined by a deluge of irrelevant comment.

There has also been a growing level of abusive personal comments, resulting partly from the lack of any progress in obtaining sensible responses. I too dislike seeing often irrelevant references to Christianity under the dubious pretence of explaining Nazism or defending Wagner and his attachment to a load of myths.

Given all this I can't see any point in continuing this discussion. It is a waste of time because it is either a matter of preaching to the converted, or runs the risk afresh of being rubbished out of hand by the opposing camp, with the attendant risks of creating heightened tensions all over again.

Lastly, the moderators have apparently decided to put a stop to threads raising hostile criticism of modern composers, so I do not see why they cannot do the same against one of history's most famous. There is no difference in principle.
 
G
#502 ·
It is a waste of time because
I would have thought the generally accepted practice would be to ignore threads that one doesn't like. What's the point of dropping into a discussion on a subject of no interest, just to say that it's of no interest?

In the meantime, I'll waste my time as I wish. It's not as if anyone here is making you waste yours, is it?
 
#513 ·
There is nothing of Hitler or of racism or of Wagner's direct experience in his music. There is only the experience of the performer and the listener as they interpret his work.

When I perform Wagner (or the nasty Gesualdo, come to that), I'm reminded of Leibniz's exercitium arithmeticae occultum nescientis se numerare animi (music is the soul's hidden arithmetical exercise, where it doesn't know what it's counting).

This notion divorces appreciation of art by the performer/listener from the composer's intention. If I designed wallpaper, I might choose a pattern which I hoped you would associate with drive and energy - but you could hang the paper in your bedroom if you wished, ignoring my soporific intent.

I personally dislike Wagner's music because my emotional compass is engaged through subtlety rather than bravura. I prefer a harmonic language where dissonance is subtle rather than overt and I enjoy melodies closer to the pastoral than the angular.
 
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