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Thread: Amplifier upgrade

  1. #76
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muse Wanderer View Post
    It is a far fetched claim to say that all the facts to a scientific subject such as audio engineering and human hearing and physiology have been fully and factually determined.
    If you join the AES (Audio Engineering Society) you can get access to the state of the art peer reviewed studies that are being done now, and you'd know where the line between what we know and what we don't know is drawn. I think you would be very surprised at what is being investigated, and what has already been determined.

    Modern amplifiers and CD players are perfectly capable of producing audibly transparent sound. So are MP3 players like the iPod. In any home stereo, the difficult part is the transducers and room acoustics. But many audiophiles have it entirely backwards. They spend all their money and effort worrying about wires and inaudible differences in electronics and totally fail to address room treatment and equalization.

    I suspect it's because those aren't things that you can lay down a credit card and buy. It takes research, experimentation and work. A lot of audiophiles aren't really interested in sound quality. They are more fascinated by acquiring the electronic equivalent of high end jewelry to display as status symbols.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  2. #77
    Senior Member Muse Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    If you join the AES (Audio Engineering Society) you can get access to the state of the art peer reviewed studies that are being done now, and you'd know where the line between what we know and what we don't know is drawn. I think you would be very surprised at what is being investigated, and what has already been determined.
    In the scientific community whoever says we know everything about the subject is dismissed outright.

    I believe that there is no market incentive to perform 'state-of-the art' population based studies to validate anyone's assertions. This is the only way to ascertain that a hypthesis is 'true' with a degree of uncertainty (usually a 95% confidence interval is accepted)/

    Engineering principles delved into the subtlest details can only lead to hypothesis. A particular hypothesis can only be validated by well funded large population based trials that are simply not performed as the cost is prohibitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Modern amplifiers and CD players are perfectly capable of producing audibly transparent sound. So are MP3 players like the iPod. In any home stereo, the difficult part is the transducers and room acoustics. But many audiophiles have it entirely backwards. They spend all their money and effort worrying about wires and inaudible differences in electronics and totally fail to address room treatment and equalization.

    I suspect it's because those aren't things that you can lay down a credit card and buy. It takes research, experimentation and work. A lot of audiophiles aren't really interested in sound quality. They are more fascinated by acquiring the electronic equivalent of high end jewelry to display as status symbols.
    Everyone is different and one cannot pigeon-hole someone based on preconceived ideas.

    Personally, I am a music lover rather than a hardcore audiophile.

    I love listening to music so much that in the past few years I decided to invest into hifi equipment. My ultimate aim is to listen to my music and feel like being in front of a live orchestra.

    Prior to any purchase I research for many months about all the options available. My latest amp purchase took one whole year of research from various sources. My latest headphone purchase (HD800) took the same amount of time.

    Transducers are of course the starting point of a system, as their effect on the sound cannot be undone (unless one contemplates modding). What I disagree is your point that amps or DACs have the same audible results. In my opinion, with first hand experience, there is an audible difference between different amps and DACs irrespective of the fact that the stated measurements, leading to the term 'transparent', are similar.

    It looks like we will have to just agree to disagree.

    At the end of day we may well sit next to each other in a symphony hall listening to a live rendition of Sibelius' 4th and agree that nothing beats it!

  3. #78
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muse Wanderer View Post
    In the scientific community whoever says we know everything about the subject is dismissed outright.
    Well, that is as far as I need to read, because the AES is a worldwide organization of recording engineers. They are the people who make the records you listen to and design the equipment it's recorded and played back on. If you won't listen to what people like that have to say, you aren't going to listen to anyone. You're just resorting to semantic absolutist arguments here and there's no point responding.

    The problem with audiophiles is that they have some tiny germ of an idea in their head that sound reproduction is some magical process that no one understands- probably because they themselves don't understand it. But when you try to explain and offer to help them understand, you realize that they don't WANT to understand. They want to preserve their own magical fantasy idea of how the world works. It must take an awful lot of work to preserve misconceptions that vehemently.

    It's fine though, because in discussions like this, I'm usually speaking past the person I'm speaking with to address the lurkers. They get it.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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  5. #79
    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    the AES is a worldwide organization of recording engineers. They are the people who make the records you listen to and design the equipment it's recorded and played back on.
    not clear how this makes them any more credible than others.

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Uh... because a member of the AES designed your stereo system and engineered most of the music you play on it. Would you trust a worldwide architect's guild for information on how to build a house, or would you ask some duffer on a internet forum somewhere who obviously is talking out of his hat?
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    come to think of it, you don't really need to bother to answer that rhetorical question.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Senior Member ptr's Avatar
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    Just because someone is a member of a peer reviewed organisation doesn't say that they have the competence to design anything! I have heard several speakers and electronics built by members of f.x AES that sounded like shite, but got rave reviews in Audiophile magazines (mostly based on how these measured), and unfortunately, the recordings of the same gentlemen (no women involved) did impress as little.
    I'm sure that the bulk of AES members are distinguished, but saying that having a membership of anything makes Your product "better" is plain stupid! Sorry to be a negative twatt!

    /ptr
    Je suis Charlie ~ I am a certified OrgaNut! (F.—I.W.)

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    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Uh... because a member of the AES designed your stereo system and engineered most of the music you play on it.
    so what?.. hope you don't think i have no complaints for my system and their recordings?

    my only dream is get at these fellows someday and grab them by the shirt to ask some uneasy questions.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Chipomarc's Avatar
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    Without having the AES we may all have missed the opportunity to hear Frank Boshoven explain LUCTRON audio routing with regards to touch panel central control systems back in 2005

    http://www.aes.org/sections/reports/?ID=1280

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    Is that some sort of DSP for adjusting room acoustics in large theaters? That isn't connected to a peer reviewed study is it? It looks like a guest speaker at a meeting.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptr View Post
    Just because someone is a member of a peer reviewed organisation doesn't say that they have the competence to design anything!
    That isn't what I said, but thanks! I was talking about the peer reviewed studies, not individual members. This is the organization where most of the research in audio reproduction comes from. Good organization. Lots of good info there for folks who are interested in learning how audio reproduction works.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharik View Post
    my only dream is get at these fellows someday and grab them by the shirt to ask some uneasy questions.
    I have no doubt of that!
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    cowpock.jpg
    http://www.vintageip.com/pics/cowpock.jpg

    The wonderful effects of the Cow Pock Vaccine by James Gillray
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muse Wanderer View Post
    In the scientific community whoever says we know everything about the subject is dismissed outright.

    I believe that there is no market incentive to perform 'state-of-the art' population based studies to validate anyone's assertions. This is the only way to ascertain that a hypthesis is 'true' with a degree of uncertainty (usually a 95% confidence interval is accepted)/

    Engineering principles delved into the subtlest details can only lead to hypothesis. A particular hypothesis can only be validated by well funded large population based trials that are simply not performed as the cost is prohibitive.




    Everyone is different and one cannot pigeon-hole someone based on preconceived ideas.

    Personally, I am a music lover rather than a hardcore audiophile.

    I love listening to music so much that in the past few years I decided to invest into hifi equipment. My ultimate aim is to listen to my music and feel like being in front of a live orchestra.

    Prior to any purchase I research for many months about all the options available. My latest amp purchase took one whole year of research from various sources. My latest headphone purchase (HD800) took the same amount of time.

    Transducers are of course the starting point of a system, as their effect on the sound cannot be undone (unless one contemplates modding). What I disagree is your point that amps or DACs have the same audible results. In my opinion, with first hand experience, there is an audible difference between different amps and DACs irrespective of the fact that the stated measurements, leading to the term 'transparent', are similar.

    It looks like we will have to just agree to disagree.

    At the end of day we may well sit next to each other in a symphony hall listening to a live rendition of Sibelius' 4th and agree that nothing beats it!
    I couldn't agree more with the first part of your post. It is the height of arrogance for anyone in a scientific field to think that we know all that we are ever going to know. There are probably many factors that effect they way we hear that haven't been discovered yet. The measurements we take may not mean anything for telling us what is happening between our brain and our ears and our perceptions of music. Someone who can't understand this is simply incapable of understanding the essence of Science.
    I also firmly agree with the rest of your post, except the part about "It looks like we will have to just agree to disagree.". Those that believe that take measurements trumps what your ears and brain perceive won't rest until they have browbeaten everyone else into accepting their dogma.

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