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Thread: Amplifier upgrade

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Well, that is as far as I need to read, because the AES is a worldwide organization of recording engineers. They are the people who make the records you listen to and design the equipment it's recorded and played back on. If you won't listen to what people like that have to say, you aren't going to listen to anyone. You're just resorting to semantic absolutist arguments here and there's no point responding.

    The problem with audiophiles is that they have some tiny germ of an idea in their head that sound reproduction is some magical process that no one understands- probably because they themselves don't understand it. But when you try to explain and offer to help them understand, you realize that they don't WANT to understand. They want to preserve their own magical fantasy idea of how the world works. It must take an awful lot of work to preserve misconceptions that vehemently.

    It's fine though, because in discussions like this, I'm usually speaking past the person I'm speaking with to address the lurkers. They get it.
    Well, that's really big of you to bother to spend the time disagreeing with idiots like me so that you may enlighten the masses that are receptive to your messianic message. Let me know when the Vatican is considering you for Sainthood so I can tell them to give you the thumbs up

  2. #92
    Senior Member Chipomarc's Avatar
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    professions-audio_engineer-.jpg

    I hope the AES aren't like these guys

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triplets View Post
    Well, that's really big of you to bother to spend the time disagreeing with idiots like me so that you may enlighten the masses that are receptive to your messianic message. Let me know when the Vatican is considering you for Sainthood so I can tell them to give you the thumbs up
    Glad to be of help! Go forth!
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triplets View Post
    I couldn't agree more with the first part of your post. It is the height of arrogance for anyone in a scientific field to think that we know all that we are ever going to know.
    We know enough to know how to make a pretty darn good rocket ship, hydroelectric dam and now even a particle accelerator. Why shouldn't we know enough to make a home stereo that performs to consistent standards?

    Is it hubris to think that we've pretty well mastered can opener technology?
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    We know enough to know how to make a pretty darn good rocket ship, hydroelectric dam and now even a particle accelerator. Why shouldn't we know enough to make a home stereo that performs to consistent standards?
    because the latter is way more complex than all the former.

    music has to do with man's very soul while the rocket is only a heap of metal and wires.

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    I assure you if you grab a phillips head screw driver and open up your amp, you'll find a heap of metal and wires, not a soul.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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  10. #97
    Senior Member Chipomarc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I assure you if you grab a phillips head screw driver and open up your amp, you'll find a heap of metal and wires, not a soul.

    Ok, you are correct

    V6aar.jpg

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    The Wolf's amp!
    soulamp.jpg
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

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  13. #99
    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I assure you if you grab a phillips head screw driver and open up your amp, you'll find a heap of metal and wires, not a soul.
    true, because you can't just plug your amp that it starts to deliver the sound desired right away, you will need to tune your entire system and match its components maybe for years to make them replay music so that it touched your soul.

  14. #100
    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    there are also amps that are outright hopeless in terms of getting them sound ok and indeed are only a heap of metal parts.

  15. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharik View Post
    true, because you can't just plug your amp that it starts to deliver the sound desired right away, you will need to tune your entire system and match its components maybe for years to make them replay music so that it touched your soul.
    Or just run tone sweeps and do the room treatment and calibrate your equalization curve in a couple of weekends! It really helps to understand how sound reproduction works. Instead of flailing around based on vague impressions, you can make a beeline straight for the goal. Once you get there, you can diddle around adjusting things for your personal taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by sharik View Post
    there are also amps that are outright hopeless in terms of getting them sound ok and indeed are only a heap of metal parts.
    Have you bought an amp like that? Which one?

    There are two things being talked about here that are two entirely different things... Audio fidelity and musical expressiveness. Audio fidelity is nuts and bolts physics of electricity and sound involving electronics and acoustic theory. Musical expressiveness is the creative choices made by the musicians. There is no "creative soul" in an amplifier. Give credit for that to the musicians. Poor audio fidelity can make it harder to appreciate great music making, but Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas still sell well and speak to people creatively. Likewise, there are plenty of audiophile demonstration recordings that sound crystal clear and present, but the performers are third rank community orchestra members incapable of doing justice to the music. Audio fidelity and musical expressiveness are two completely separate things.

    If you are looking for artistic expressiveness, talk about music. You don't find that in black boxes that plug into the wall. Those black boxes can only be judged by their audio fidelity- meaning the transparency of the sound being output compared to the source recording. Any attempt to venture into metaphysics when it comes to electronics is obfuscation. It's silly.
    Last edited by bigshot; Aug-16-2015 at 20:10.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  16. #102
    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Or just run tone sweeps and do the room treatment and calibrate your equalization curve in a couple of weekends!
    doesn't work like that... i heard systems calibrated like this and they sounded dull, lacked tunefulness.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Have you bought an amp like that? Which one?
    first i bought a Cambridge Azur amp and it was nightmare, then i went with Naim amps and now everything is ok.

  17. #103
    Senior Member sharik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    If you are looking for artistic expressiveness, talk about music.
    the wrong thread; we have already talked artistic expressiveness and its importance elsewhere on these forums, so now the talk is about how to deliver it all via hifi systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    You don't find that in black boxes that plug into the wall.
    you just didn't get lucky.

  18. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharik View Post
    doesn't work like that... i heard systems calibrated like this and they sounded dull, lacked tunefulness.
    If the music is tuneless, blame the musicians.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  19. #105
    Senior Member Muse Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triplets View Post

    I couldn't agree more with the first part of your post. It is the height of arrogance for anyone in a scientific field to think that we know all that we are ever going to know. There are probably many factors that affect the way we hear that haven't been discovered yet. The measurements we take may not mean anything for telling us what is happening between our brain and our ears and our perceptions of music. Someone who can't understand this is simply incapable of understanding the essence of Science.

    I also firmly agree with the rest of your post, except the part about "It looks like we will have to just agree to disagree.". Those that believe that take measurements trumps what your ears and brain perceive won't rest until they have browbeaten everyone else into accepting their dogma.
    Yep, it looks like you understand scientific reasoning as much as I do.

    I am at present writing a thesis for an MSc in my own free time when I am off work from hospital. Besides this I have and I am still writing publications on international medical journals, including fully fledged reviews, in my other spare time, i.e. instead of sleeping.

    I definitely don't have time to argue with pseudoscientific articulated individuals that have no clue what critical appraisal is!

    What I find fascinating is the complete and utter belief that is based on hypothetical thinking and anecdotal evidence rather than on pragmatic and validated studies. If the field of medicine works in the same way than we'll all be in trouble whenever we rely on a test or take a medication.

    There are many stories about drugs that worked optimally in lab tissue tests, animal tests, field studies in healthy human subjects, phase I, II, III and even IV trials and then disaster struck when introduced in the market.

    In the case of thalidomide, for example, it resulted in foetal deformities (phocomelia) in pregnant women. Guess what, pregnant women are not usually included in human trials for ethical reasons and researchers have to rely on less valid animal studies.

    One just cannot account to the countless variables that are unknown without well designed trials. Even when this is the case, sometimes things go wrong as one variable is missed.

    In the case of an amplifier or a DAC, from the moment the signal enters the audio system to being 'heard' within the auditory cortex of the temporal zones of the brain, the variables involved are infinitesimal. The only way to find some degree of objectivity is to account for these unknown and known variables with methodologically well designed randomised controlled trials.

    It is simply the case that such trials do not exist for audio components.

    The evidence is very low in quality and one cannot rely on it.

    Some individuals tend to go to the other extreme and believe in it.
    Last edited by Muse Wanderer; Jan-20-2016 at 14:29.

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