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Thread: Why is 4'33" disparaged, while Western forms of sacred music get their own forum?

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    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Cage commented regarding his String Quartet in Four Parts of 1950: "Without actually using silence, I should like to praise it." Incorporating the meditative, tranquil aspects of Indian art and culture into Western music is old news nowadays, especially since the days of George Harrison and the Beatles, but in 1950 mid-20th century Western modernism was nearing its peak and this must have been quite a departure from the norm. Maybe it's not the first thing one thinks of in connection with John Cage, but everyone here who is so outraged by 4'33" should listen to it. It will calm you down.StringQuartetOpening.jpg

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    Senior Member EddieRUKiddingVarese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirime View Post
    Here's my first, and I'm one in support of 4'33"!
    Your back, that was quick
    "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"

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  4. #2133
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I stand behind every post I have made here, because I think I truly understand the work and its significance.

    4'33" is an important work, and Cage was a real composer. If you want complexity, look at The Freeman Etudes:

    Hey, this is my kind of thread. Relating to the OP, 4'33" is both sacred and secular music at the same time. It can't be pigeonholed into a single genre. I can go on and on....


    The Freeman etudes aren't complex. Cage didn't even compose them. They are just transcriptions to music of star charts. Cage ways always good for a laugh.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    millionrainbows, Thanks for the Freeman identification, I thought my new progressive lenses were making me see triple . . .
    Last edited by Roger Knox; Jun-21-2018 at 17:01.

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    Senior Member San Antone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I stand behind every post I have made here, because I think I truly understand the work and its significance.

    4'33" is an important work, and Cage was a real composer. If you want complexity, look at The Freeman Etudes:
    Yep. But I understand people who think otherwise. I don't lose any sleep over it since it doesn't matter how people think of Cage, his place as a major figure in the history of music is secure. I think people will be performing and listening to his music, as well as arguing over it, for many decades to come.

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    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Hey, this is my kind of thread. Relating to the OP, 4'33" is both sacred and secular music at the same time. It can't be pigeonholed into a single genre. I can go on and on....


    The Freeman etudes aren't complex. Cage didn't even compose them. They are just transcriptions to music of star charts. Cage ways always good for a laugh.
    Probably stars near Vega!
    "He who makes songs without feeling spoils both his words and his music. " ~ Guillaume de Machaut

    "It is insulting to address anyone in a language which they do not understand." ~ Benjamin Britten

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    In the movie 'Amadeus' there's the famous and fun scene where Mozart asks the Emperor what he thinks was wrong with his opera and the emperor stammers and finally says that it just had "too many notes". So when I hear people criticize Cage's 4'33", it all sounds to me like they're just saying "not enough notes"!

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    Senior Member EddieRUKiddingVarese's Avatar
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    John Lennon did a great 4'33" version on his Mind Games LP, called the Nutopian International Anthem
    "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    John Lennon did a great 4'33" version on his Mind Games LP, called the Nutopian International Anthem
    set the cashew boxes ringing

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    The Freeman etudes aren't complex. Cage didn't even compose them. They are just transcriptions to music of star charts. Cage ways always good for a laugh.
    You are missing a lot.

    If you have the 2 CDs on MODE, read the liner notes, and you will see what trouble Cage went to in composing these Etudes. It was only with the help of Irvine Arditti, who said he could perform them after Paul Zukofsky's attempt and subsequent departure, that Cage was able to proceed with, and finish the Freeman Etudes.

    John Cage was not a 'jokester.'

    The Freeman Etudes are complex, and almost humanly impossible to play accurately, but Irvine Ardiiti accomplished this. The notation is very complex, with rapidly changing dynamics, irrational rhythms (nested tuplets, 7 against 8, etc.), and wide leaps in register.

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    Senior Member St Matthew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    The Freeman etudes aren't complex. Cage didn't even compose them. They are just transcriptions to music of star charts. Cage ways always good for a laugh.
    You miss the point completely and no, he Etudes ARE complex. Cage wasn't out there writing music to be funny either, where did you get that from? His music is entirely serious, although he himself had a sense of humor (anyone without a sense of humor is damned)

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    Senior Member EddieRUKiddingVarese's Avatar
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    Hey was John Cage a Cowboy?
    "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"

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    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    Hey was John Cage a Cowboy?
    I'd say yes, in the sense that he probably didn't get too far away from the cow pies.
    Last edited by Room2201974; Jun-23-2018 at 01:11.
    "He who makes songs without feeling spoils both his words and his music. " ~ Guillaume de Machaut

    "It is insulting to address anyone in a language which they do not understand." ~ Benjamin Britten

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    John Lennon did a great 4'33" version on his Mind Games LP, called the Nutopian International Anthem
    He also did a cut called "One Minute of Silence" on the "Life with the Lions" album, in memoriam to the miscarriage of Yoko.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I am the spirit of dead zebras." - It came to me in a dream

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    Hey was John Cage a Cowboy?
    Yes, he was, just like Aaron Copland.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I am the spirit of dead zebras." - It came to me in a dream

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