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Thread: Best recordings of Rachmaninoff's piano concerrtos?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Silly girl. You don't "study" Martha. You go to the basement or to the room nearest the center of your house, crouch down, and cover your head; or, if you're on the road, you pull over, get out of the car, find the lowest spot of ground, lie flat on your stomach, and hope that a flying cow does not drop on you.
    Bovine intervention unnecessary. Martha milks the music for all its worth.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by albertfallickwang View Post
    It is possible. Some people can't handle an smart and beautiful lady at the same time
    Quote Originally Posted by albertfallickwang View Post
    LOL .
    Oh its not that. Woodduck has superb taste in women. I just wish that his Garbo was up to his Argerich.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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    Senior Member Albert7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    [COLOR="#0000CD"]

    Bovine intervention unnecessary. Martha milks the music for all its worth.
    Martha, sushi, and Helene... a perfect trio for the evening.
    "if a horse could sing in a monotone, the horse would sound like Carly Simon, only a horse wouldn't rhyme 'yacht', 'apricot', and 'gavotte'. Is that some kind of joke?"
    --Robert Christgau
    "there's a fine line between having an open mind and having your whole brain fall out"
    --Anonymous

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    Senior Member Itullian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Attachment 65283

    Not a Marta fan? What's the matter with you?
    My taste runs more to Pires
    When all else fails, listen to Thick as a Brick.

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    Senior Member Albert7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itullian View Post
    My taste runs more to Pires
    Or you could do both with Martha and Maria
    "if a horse could sing in a monotone, the horse would sound like Carly Simon, only a horse wouldn't rhyme 'yacht', 'apricot', and 'gavotte'. Is that some kind of joke?"
    --Robert Christgau
    "there's a fine line between having an open mind and having your whole brain fall out"
    --Anonymous

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    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post

    Interestingly, Stephen Hough, in preparation for his set of the concertos, made an intensive study of Rach's recordings and had much to say on the subject. Just in case anyone cares.
    Yes I have Hough's set. But his no 3 can't hold a candle to Argerich! Nor is it as good as Janis, Horowitz, Volodos or Wild. Not that it's bad - it's not as good as them. And don't forget Ashkenazy.

  10. #67
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Well. Folks, if y'all just adore Martha here, I'm pleased as punch for y'all.

    I make no claim that my preferences, solely because they are mine, have "objective" validity. I say only: "There's Rachmaninoff presenting himself, being himself. Pay attention. He doesn't care what we think, but he'd like us to listen carefully to what he does. Listen carefully enough and you may come to know him better."

    Interestingly, Stephen Hough, in preparation for his set of the concertos, made an intensive study of Rach's recordings and had much to say on the subject. Just in case anyone cares.
    Richter's no 2 is not at all like Rachmaninov's. Does that disqualify that incredible performance?

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    Senior Member Albert7's Avatar
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    Richter's version is very awesome. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.
    "if a horse could sing in a monotone, the horse would sound like Carly Simon, only a horse wouldn't rhyme 'yacht', 'apricot', and 'gavotte'. Is that some kind of joke?"
    --Robert Christgau
    "there's a fine line between having an open mind and having your whole brain fall out"
    --Anonymous

    アルバート セブン

  12. #69
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Richter's no 2 is not at all like Rachmaninov's. Does that disqualify that incredible performance?
    "Disqualify"? You just made that up, didn't you?

    A musical score is, as every musician - composer or performer - knows, only a set of instructions as to what the music it represent is intended to sound like. It must be deciphered and translated into sound by someone who must make innumerable suppositions about what the composer intends. In Rachmaninoff we have a composer supremely capable of performing his own music. He was a pianist of unsurpassed skill who not only knew how he wanted his music to sound but had the ability to make it sound that way. His performances can therefore be considered essential to our understanding of his intentions for his own works. Performances that differ greatly from his may shed some interesting light on his music but do not fully represent his intentions. We may enjoy them, and he certainly would not have prevented them even if he could have; as a musician, he certainly understood that each performer must confront and interpret music in her own way. It is therefore absurd to speak of a performance by a major artist such as Argerich or Richter as "disqualified." What we may speak of it as, however, is a departure from the sensibility and vision of the composer. How great a departure it is, only the composer could tell us. But our personal taste should not obscure for us, and does not render irrelevant, the truth that Rachmaninoff's playing of his music represents it, and in some important way represents him, more truly than Argerich's or Richter's.

    Alternatives to the composer's way with his own music have their place, of course. They can be fascinating and enjoyable for their own peculiarities. I wouldn't want to have missed out on Furtwangler's performances of Beethoven's Ninth. Does the incredibly slow tempo in the third movement represent Beethoven's intentions? Absolutely not. This doesn't "disqualify" for us (whatever that means) Furtwangler's performance, which achieves something impressive in its own way. But I can still admit that it's as much Furtwangler as it is Beethoven. And if Ludwig should come back from the dead and hear it he would probably pick up the nearest plate of sauerbraten and throw it at the wall, accompanied by a few unprintable German words.

    I'm not throwing plates of food here. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

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  14. #70
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    "Disqualify"? You just made that up, didn't you?

    A musical score is, as every musician - composer or performer - knows, only a set of instructions as to what the music it represent is intended to sound like. It must be deciphered and translated into sound by someone who must make innumerable suppositions about what the composer intends. In Rachmaninoff we have a composer supremely capable of performing his own music. He was a pianist of unsurpassed skill who not only knew how he wanted his music to sound but had the ability to make it sound that way. His performances can therefore be considered essential to our understanding of his intentions for his own works. Performances that differ greatly from his may shed some interesting light on his music but do not fully represent his intentions. We may enjoy them, and he certainly would not have prevented them even if he could have; as a musician, he certainly understood that each performer must confront and interpret music in her own way. It is therefore absurd to speak of a performance by a major artist such as Argerich or Richter as "disqualified." What we may speak of it as, however, is a departure from the sensibility and vision of the composer. How great a departure it is, only the composer could tell us. But our personal taste should not obscure for us, and does not render irrelevant, the truth that Rachmaninoff's playing of his music represents it, and in some important way represents him, more truly than Argerich's or Richter's.

    Alternatives to the composer's way with his own music have their place, of course. They can be fascinating and enjoyable for their own peculiarities. I wouldn't want to have missed out on Furtwangler's performances of Beethoven's Ninth. Does the incredibly slow tempo in the third movement represent Beethoven's intentions? Absolutely not. This doesn't "disqualify" for us (whatever that means) Furtwangler's performance, which achieves something impressive in its own way. But I can still admit that it's as much Furtwangler as it is Beethoven. And if Ludwig should come back from the dead and hear it he would probably pick up the nearest plate of sauerbraten and throw it at the wall, accompanied by a few unprintable German words.

    I'm not throwing plates of food here. I'm just pointing out the obvious.
    What do you mean, made it up? Of course I did as I wrote it. I thought that would have been obvious. I simply asked the question. The problem is you are come across as self-contradiction, one time implying Rach's way of performing is the only way. Then saying something else. Of course - as I said if you read my post - Rach's own performances are a unique historical document in spite of the very dated recording. However, I have no doubt that Rach being a composer he would have been delighted at the different ways people have of interpreting his music. he would have loved Argerich, Volodos et al. In fact if as pianist himself he would have loved them. Don't forget Horowitz's Rach 3 is quite different to the composer's and Rach loved it. It's critics who tend to be more narrow minded about things like that. For example, when I started collecting records, at one time the critics thought that Klemperer's way with Beethoven was the standard. Critical opinion has now shifted as it does with musical fashion. We must indeed learn the obvious - it is to me at any way - that there is more than one way of interpreting great music.

  15. #71
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by albertfallickwang View Post
    Richter's version is very awesome. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.
    Frankly anyone is isn't awed by it has a problem!

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    Senior Member Albert7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Frankly anyone is isn't awed by it has a problem!
    Indeed I agree. I am puzzled by those people who don't enjoy anything played by Richter honestly. That guy was a true master.
    "if a horse could sing in a monotone, the horse would sound like Carly Simon, only a horse wouldn't rhyme 'yacht', 'apricot', and 'gavotte'. Is that some kind of joke?"
    --Robert Christgau
    "there's a fine line between having an open mind and having your whole brain fall out"
    --Anonymous

    アルバート セブン

  17. #73
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    "Disqualify"? You just made that up, didn't you?

    A musical score is, as every musician - composer or performer - knows, only a set of instructions as to what the music it represent is intended to sound like. It must be deciphered and translated into sound by someone who must make innumerable suppositions about what the composer intends. In Rachmaninoff we have a composer supremely capable of performing his own music. He was a pianist of unsurpassed skill who not only knew how he wanted his music to sound but had the ability to make it sound that way. His performances can therefore be considered essential to our understanding of his intentions for his own works. Performances that differ greatly from his may shed some interesting light on his music but do not fully represent his intentions. We may enjoy them, and he certainly would not have prevented them even if he could have; as a musician, he certainly understood that each performer must confront and interpret music in her own way. It is therefore absurd to speak of a performance by a major artist such as Argerich or Richter as "disqualified." What we may speak of it as, however, is a departure from the sensibility and vision of the composer. How great a departure it is, only the composer could tell us. But our personal taste should not obscure for us, and does not render irrelevant, the truth that Rachmaninoff's playing of his music represents it, and in some important way represents him, more truly than Argerich's or Richter's.

    Alternatives to the composer's way with his own music have their place, of course. They can be fascinating and enjoyable for their own peculiarities. I wouldn't want to have missed out on Furtwangler's performances of Beethoven's Ninth. Does the incredibly slow tempo in the third movement represent Beethoven's intentions? Absolutely not. This doesn't "disqualify" for us (whatever that means) Furtwangler's performance, which achieves something impressive in its own way. But I can still admit that it's as much Furtwangler as it is Beethoven. And if Ludwig should come back from the dead and hear it he would probably pick up the nearest plate of sauerbraten and throw it at the wall, accompanied by a few unprintable German words.

    I'm not throwing plates of food here. I'm just pointing out the obvious.
    That's all to the good and tautologically fine- but I always admire people who not only can hit targets others can't reach, but also the ones others can't even 'see' as well.

    Argerich's firebranding Rachmaninov's Third is one example- and Stokowski's own orchestration and visceral treatment of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor from 1927 with the Philadelphia Orchestra is but another.

    Though the incandescence of suchlike performances may not represent the beaux ideal for either Rachmaninov or Bach as originally conceived, they are still works of refurbished genius.

    - To me at any rate. ;D
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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  19. #74
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Frankly anyone is isn't awed by it has a problem!
    No, they do not have a problem. They are merely not awed. I dare say that many, many people are not awed. Those people do not have "problems."

    Good grief. Just the other day someone on another thread expressed the thought that to dislike the music of Mahler seemed "anti-human." I presume that is also some kind of "problem."

    It really is more appropriate, and makes one look less absurd - in case one cares how one looks - to give one's opinions of music without assuming there is something wrong with people merely because they disagree with them.

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  21. #75
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    That's all to the good and tautologically fine- but I always admire people who not only can hit targets others can't reach, but also the ones others can't even 'see' as well.

    Argerich's firebranding Rachmaninov's Third is one example- and Stokowski's own orchestration and visceral treatment of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor from 1927 with the Philadelphia Orchestra is but another.

    Though the incandescence of suchlike performances may not represent the beaux ideal for either Rachmaninov or Bach as originally conceived, they are still works of refurbished genius.

    - To me at any rate. ;D
    Very well put. I don't disagree - and I know that you, at least, will understand that in saying that I'm not contradicting anything I've said elsewhere.

    I would only remark that Argerich can firebrand anything. It's her brand. She probably even branded that flying cow.

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