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Do you take the guitar seriously as a musical instrument?

79K views 171 replies 65 participants last post by  Fugal 
#1 ·
I am a musician,i play two instruments.one,the piano,is instantly recognised and respected,the other,the guitar,is not.The guitar is by far my favourite instrument,it is incredibly personla,there are hundreds of different inflections you can put onn a single note!Experimental tunings,multiple strings,various slides,such a wide array of sounds is possible!And yet it is unappreciated in the classical world!I feel the guitar is more expressive than the piano as i favour it's tone and the amount of control over the notes,the personal aspects of it!I could ramble on for hours... but i'll try to stick to the point,I also love electric guitar which is NOT as violent as it seems but that is a matter for another day,the point is I am appealing to those who dislike my instrument,who here doesn't like guitar!?
 
#42 · (Edited)
Yagan Kiely-
Please don't bring personal attacks into this just because I hold different ideas than you.
I am not attacking you.
However I really want to offer you to check some more opinions here seriously.
You wrote about the fact that a guitar can't produce as loud sound as string instruments or the piano can. You maybe right. But when you are speaking about range of dynamics it is not enough to check who can produce the louder voice..
Moreover, with nowadays tech it is not really an issue. A little microphone changes everything.
Even in piano concerts you can see sometimes use of mics..
Who care that you spoke only about un-mic guitars- by doing that; you ignore reallity.

The main thing I am saying, it doesn't have the ability to produce melodies as well as instruments that have an extended delay (Flute, Violin), nor does it have the contrapuntal, colouristic or dynamic qualities of the piano.
Again, it is WRONG!
It is a shame that you think so..I will be happy to know what brought you to do this funny comparison.
For sure it doesn't has the colouristic of piano because guitar isn't piano!
You are basing your opinions on ignorance.
I know very well some of the piano repertoire- I LOVE the piano sonatas of Beethoven which you mentioned. Please tell me what part of the guitar repertoire you really know?
If you just check some more information, you will discover that the guitar has so many sorts of diffarent sounds(colours), range dynamics(not just loud but rich amount of diffarent volumes).
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I think you confuse the classical guitar with the electric guitar too. It is really not the same instrument.

Try to listen to a good guitar composers\players and than tell what your opinion.
Players: Julian Bream, John Williams, Andreas Segovia, Marcin Dylla, Aniello Desiderio.
Composers: Agustin Barrios, Manuel Ponce, Tarriga, Tedesco(wrote alot for guitar), Aguado Dionisio,Fernando Sor, Leo Bruower. Try Pagnini's pieces for guitar too..
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IN SHORT: IT IS A SERIOUS INSTRUMENT WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!
Even CHOPIN who dedicated his life to the piano wrote about the classical guitar:

"Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, save perhaps two."

"The guitar is a wonderful instrument which is understood by few."
- Franz Schubert
 
#43 ·
I am not attacking you.
You did, you aren't now.

You wrote about the fact that a guitar can't produce as loud sound as string instruments or the piano. You maybe right. But when you are speaking about range of dynamics it is not enough to check who can produce the louder voice..
I didn't.

Even in piano concerts you can see sometimes use of mics..
To record.

Who care that you spoke only about un-mic guitars- by doing that; you ignore reallity.
The reality being the there were microphones when the guitar was invented? When Schubert said what he said? My history must really be shaky...

For sure it doesn't has the colouristic of piano because guitar isn't piano!
I said harmonic colours.
I LOVE the piano sonatas of Beethoven which you mentioned.
No I didn't.

Please tell me what part of the guitar repertoire you really know?
I know a lot of renaissance, spanish 20th century and a few of the later works. I hear the pieces live all the time almost every week at my uni.

has so many sorts of diffarent sounds(colours)
Don't remember saying it didn't.
, range dynamics(not just loud but rich amount of different volumes)
Are you trying to say that the loudest note on the guitar (without a resulting 'snap pizz' (do guitarists call this differently?) as it changes the tone too much to be an accurate comparison) has the same decibels as a piano playing its loudest? And I never said it doesn't have different volumes.

I think you confuse the classical guitar with the electric guitar too. It is really not the same instrument.
No, I made it obvious in my second (?) post that I know very little about electric guitars so I can't comment on them. I also can't believe you came to this conclusion when you even commented on my (subjective) dislike of amplified instruments.

Players: Julian Bream, John Williams, Andreas Segovia, Marcin Dylla, Aniello Desiderio.
Composers: Agustin Barrios, Manuel Ponce, Tarriga, Tedesco(wrote alot for guitar), Aguado Dionisio,Fernando Sor, Leo Bruower. Try Pagnini's pieces for guitar too..
I have heard a lot but not all of these performers/composers. Any in particular you suggest?

IN SHORT: IT IS A SERIOUS INSTRUMENT WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!
You do realise that this is one humongous logical fallacy and it is not an argument and it contributes very little to helping your argument at all? It's quite a ludicrous statement. If you said "...It is a serious instrument in my opinion whether you like it or not!' in which case it would be perfectly valid. I am not trying to change your opinion. Nor did I ever say it is not a serious instrument. My first post explicitly said I believe it is. In short: why don't you read?

Even chopin who dedicated his life to the piano wrote about the classical guitar:

"Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, save perhaps two."

"The guitar is a wonderful instrument which is understood by few."
- Franz Schubert
Again, two different (but related) fallacies in this argument.
 
#44 ·
The guitar is pretty but it can't be compared to the piano, violin, cello or oboe. I would compare it to the recorder - beautiful in it's own right and highly flexible but limited in it's emotive and dynamic scope.
 
#46 ·
Perhaps we could make this thread into a "guitar recommendations thread". Some users expressed their opinions about its limitations, some made statements to the contrary, let's just acknowledge that and move on to something more useful.

After all the whole point of this forum and any forum about music is to enhance the experience of listening to music by providing background and explanations as well as inspiration to find new recordings to listen to.

Let's take Abeniz's Asturias as the first official recommendation of a guitar piece and provide some more. And let it be only classical pieces ORIGINALLY written for the guitar as transcriptions and non-classical pieces are very numerous and beyond the scope of this forum I guess (having their separate threads in the non-classical section).
 
#47 ·
chubert and Chopin or Yagan Kiely
Why are you attempting saying that I have different opinions than those? Not a fair comparison. I'm not talking about what they said. Please read what I say, then you would understand that. I guitar can be beautiful in it's own right. I reserve to right to not find it the most impressive instrument, but that is my opinion, like Schubert's. Neither of those were talking about the limits of the instrument. Please don't deliberately misrepresent me any more!

Coincidentally, I find the clarinet very expressionless (one of the main driving forces of music), yet it is one of my favourite instruments.
 
#49 ·
All Bach that's played on the guitar will be a transcription.
What I think is kind of contradiction is that you (not you Bach) are saying that Beethoven's piano sonata isn't for piano and it's an unfair comparison (which I absolutely agree, it give my point of view an unfair and unreal advantage), but then you go ahead and give other transcriptions when you think it suites you. That is also unfair (actually on yourself), but it is just really contradictory....
 
#53 ·
I think you wrong.
Since Bach is one of these composers who didn't thought too much about the instrument they writing for- there are more options to do a good transcriptions.
Beethoven wrote his piano sonatas for piano only, and he really took into consideration the unique abilities of the piano.

Bach wrote 4 suites for Lute. These pieces are extremly hard to play in the Lute and sometimes even impossible. However they suites perfectly well to the guitar.
Moreover(sorry violin players), the great CHACONNE is wonderful on the guitar. It is very problematic to make chords on the violin clear enough. I don't want to imagine this piece on the piano (without vibrato)---> The guitar, in my opinion, is the perfect instrument for this piece.
The guitar has the suitable tone,vib, and harmonic abilities:

 
#54 ·
Since Bach is one of these composers who didn't thought too much about the instrument they writing for- there are more options to do a good transcriptions.
Regardless of how much they thought about the colour of the instrument. The technicality they did think of. Every above average composer that is.

Beethoven wrote his piano sonatas for piano only, and he really took into consideration the unique abilities of the piano.
Bach never had a chord with over 5 notes did he. And organ pedals never existed.

Moreover(sorry violin players), the great CHACONNE is wonderful on the guitar. It is very problematic to make chords on the violin clear enough.
It is had to make them clear enough but it is easily possible and the violin allows the melody to actually shine rather than die out almost instantly.
 
#55 ·
The technicality they did think of
I didn't say he didn't.
Bach never had a chord with over 5 notes did he. And organ pedals never existed.
Try to play 5 notes togther in violin...
It is had to make them clear enough but it is easily possible and the violin allows the melody to actually shine rather than die out almost instantly.
In the begining of the Chaccone most important is the harmony. About the melody I just don't agree- but it is ok that you think so.
 
#56 ·
I think this is a silly argument. Is the guitar a serious instrument? Yes it is.

The guitar is not the piano, so of course it has a limited range, but your imagination and creativity help put the idea of that to rest.

No instrument sounds like the guitar, just like no instrument sounds like the piano or saxophone. Every instrument has its strengths and weaknesses, but each of them produces a unique sound, but to get beyond the instrument itself, it takes a serious musical mind.
 
#58 ·
And the organ is more 'contrapuntally variable' than the piano.
Never said it didn't amazing perception on your part.

I think this is a silly argument. Is the guitar a serious instrument? Yes it is.
Agreed. Silly argument and silly question. That is why I ignored the question and went on from there.

No instrument sounds like the guitar, just like no instrument sounds like the piano or saxophone. Every instrument has its strengths and weaknesses, but each of them produces a unique sound, but to get beyond the instrument itself, it takes a serious musical mind.
Let us put this mathematically: Piano has + 1 & -1, Violin has +1 & -1, Guitar has -1 & +1 & -1. The fact that it has a limited dynamics & a sort decay & more limited counterpoint than the piano contributes to a more limited instrument. But I agree, it is easy to get around that. As I said, I ignored the argument of 'is it serious', I also ignored 'is it a bad instrument' because, no it isn't.
 
#59 ·
Agreed. Silly argument and silly question. That is why I ignored the question and went on from there.
Why silly? There are people who think the guitar is not a serious instrument for classical music.
There are people on the other hand, like me, who think that the guitar is the most superior instrument ;-)
Although it is not the most sophisticated question and I agree that this is even childish quetion. However it is still good question.
 
#60 ·
Well, one must only point out out many people take it seriously and how many play it and how much music is written for it. Bingo, it is already serious; I doubt every piece written for guitar is a scherzo. It's seriousness can easily be accounted for, and I don't believe that is really what is meant by the title of this thread.

There are people on the other hand, like me, who think that the guitar is the most superior instrument ;-)
Then there are me, who don't believe there is such a thing. Just because you play an instrument doesn't mean it is superior. IMO the ultimate instrument is the voice, but I don't believe it is superior or better by any means. Arguable every other instruments (through evolution) aims on mimicking the voice, and the voice certainly is the most expressive (due to its inherent link to humanity), and expressivity is arguably the soul reason for music (and all the arts really).

Waffled a bit there (it's late), but I hope you get my point.
 
#62 · (Edited)
Well, I haven't exactly compiled it, but I'll start.

Most difficult to master:

Piano (because of the cerebral and technical demands of the repertoire)
Violin (because of the innate musicality and dedication required to make it sing)
Cello (similar reasons to the violin)

Most difficult to start (become proficient on)

Oboe (because of the reed, breathing, musicality required to keep it in tune and create beautiful tone)
Horn (because of the impossibly tight embouchure and close proximity of notes)
Voice (because you might not have one in the first place)

Technical Capabilities

Piano (harmonic, dynamic, contrapuntal, timbre)
Organ (harmonic, contrapuntal, range)
Violin (timbre, effects and manipulation, range)
Voice (timbre, effects and manipulation)
 
#63 ·
Why is the violin harder than the viola? Is the horn harder than the digeridoo? Why is the piano harder to master than the guitar? Have you tried to master either instrument?

I'm afraid the answers to such question can never be found, and indeed, don't exist, mainly because everyone has different aptitudes and some people may find playing the clarinet (for example) easier than the trumpet etc.
 
#64 ·
The viola repertoire and requirements are easier. (other than that, it's the same I suppose - I'll admit to an oversight - but the solo repertoire on the viola is generally considerably easier than that of the violin)

Guitar repertoire is A LOT easier than piano repertoire. Compare a piece of difficult guitar music by Albeniz or Rodrigo to the Hammerklavier by Beethoven or Boulez's second piano sonata. No comparison.

I'm an amateur (fairly rubbish) guitarist and a professional pianist. Guitar music is often very chordal, and if you know 'em then you can probably play it.
 
#65 ·
Compare a piece of difficult guitar music by Albeniz or Rodrigo to the Hammerklavier by Beethoven or Boulez's second piano sonata. No comparison.

I'm an amateur (fairly rubbish) guitarist and a professional pianist. Guitar music is often very chordal, and if you know 'em then you can probably play it.
The guitar piece Kurze Schatten by Brian Ferneyhough is harder than either the Boulez or Beethoven.
 
#66 ·
I doubt it. It takes a ridiculously adept pianist to offer a convincing interpretation of the Hammerklavier. Any inaccuracies stand out like black on white. Drawing from my knowledge of Ferneyhough's style I would say you could play any old tripe and convince the average audience you were note perfect.
 
#74 · (Edited)
The same could be said about the Boulez if we're applying that old irksome, platitiudinous criticism of atonal music, where the 'right notes' can not be distinguished from the 'wrong'. This isn't the place for vulgar and glib insults of Ferneyhough.

I think the problem is that we need to define what 'mastery' of an instrument actually means. And since there are no pieces of the length of the Hammerklavier for the guitar, it's an unfair comparison. So, tell me, why if a guitarist learns several pieces in the time it takes for a pianist to learn one, it still means the piano is for some reason harder to master? Arguably the Hammerklavier takes more stamina, though since it is a self-contained composition built from the same material (and interrelated material) it would be easier to remember than an assortment of different pieces.

Anyway, mastery of an instrument can only ever been seen on its own terms. It's like languages - there is no such thing as a 'most difficult' language, because which ever language is most difficult depends on what your mother tongue is - Westerners may find Chinese very hard, but it would not be so hard for, for instance, a Korean (assuming the Westerner and Korean are of a similar intelligence).
 
#67 ·
I am a classical guitarist myself. I do have an assortment of electric guitars that I haven't picked up in years. I feel that the guitar has a lot of power to it. It's a very capable instrument from solos to concertos. It's a unique sound that does have varying degrees of flexibility and is largely looked down upon because of it's abundance in popular music.
 
#68 · (Edited)
I doubt every piece written for guitar is a scherzo
So you don't really familiar with the guitar repertuar again!

And about the "superior instrument". I called the guitar so just to defened my instrument:).
I really think that it doesn't matter what instrument you play as long as you are good musician and I really mean it.
For me there is something sepacial about the guitar. I am adicted to this instrument and that is why I am a guitarist. However there is no really "superior instrument"- I agree.

Guitar repertoire is A LOT easier than piano repertoire. Compare a piece of difficult guitar music by Albeniz or Rodrigo to the Hammerklavier by Beethoven or Boulez's second piano sonata. No comparison.
I am sorry but this sentence come from ignorance. Do you know all the guitar repertuar that you are talking?
The Hammerklavier is wounderful but what is it connected to Rodrigo's music? Did you ever tried to play Rodrigo's music on guitar?
It is just stupid comparison (sorry). And all your theory about what is the hardest instrument is illogical and tasteless.
Moreover, Rodrigo is not the only composer that wrote for guitar and in fact albeniz never wrote for guitar. Albeniz just admited that the arrs of some of his pieces to the guitar are better from the source(in his opinion).
 
#69 ·
The guitar is indeed a very beautiful instrument with a great many qualities. Perhaps it's greatest is freedom. It's an instrument which lends itself very well to improvisation - more so than the piano and far more so than violin or cello.
 
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