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Historical Wagner Recordings...............

800K views 5K replies 147 participants last post by  Seattleoperafan 
#1 ·
I have many Wagner recordings, but am a bit light on the great mono historical recordings.

Which are the ones I need to get? Your favorites?

thanks
 
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#4,876 ·
i always felt that Karajan's EMI stereo Meister could have been much greater if Adam and Ridderbusch would have switched roles. But it's still a very good recording.
 
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#4,888 ·
^^^^And the sound on Solti 2 is spectacular!!!
 
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#4,890 ·
^^^^^^i think if you add Solti 2 you're all set :)
 
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#4,910 · (Edited)
Note, too, that Furtwangler Sound has now issued the La Scala Ring:

http://furtwanglersound.com/recordings/wagner/

I wonder if the RAI will follow.

Reviews to date suggest that the Furtwangler Sound transfers are generally better than the Pristine Classical ones. I can't comment on that myself. I'm a bit dubious of these companies that issue material only as downloads and/or CD-Rs. Under my climatic conditions, I find that a properly manufactured pressed CD will usually play perfectly after 35+ years, whereas even an unlabelled Taiyo Yuden CD-R may tend to deteriorate (usually from the 70-minute mark on) after 5-10 years, and a download will be lost when the drive on which it's loaded dies (1-5 years).
 
#4,912 · (Edited)
a download will be lost when the drive on which it's loaded dies (1-5 years).
i can't imagine anyone who has a substantial digital library who would be crazy enough not to back up their music libraries on multiple drives.

i'm pretty lazy about backing mine up but i refresh my backup to an external drive every few months at least. i also travel with my backup so a house fire or a burglary while i'm gone won't wipe me out. i still have cd rips from when i digitized my entire collection around 15 years ago several computers and many hard drives later in my library.

i personally consider the furtwangler scala ring from pristine one of the best purchases i've made in the past few years. i don't always feel that way about my pristine purchases--i kind of went nuts with buying horenstein and furtwangler symphonic recordings i don't really listen to much, and i never listen to the krauss ring anymore--but the scala ring along with the desormiere pelleas and the warren/bjorling rigoletto are in my very active rotation.
 
#4,911 ·
I’ve ordered CD’s from Pristine and I’m pretty sure they are just CD-R’s with a label stuck to them. I keep them in my music library after ripping the music to my Cowon MP3 player. I think Pristine does a great job on most purchases I’ve made.

As for the Furtwangler Ring, I bought it more for Flagstad than anything else. Kna owns the Ring IMO.

My dream is Kna conducting the Ring with Flagstad as Brünnhilde... one can dream!
 
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#4,913 ·
I've ordered CD's from Pristine and I'm pretty sure they are just CD-R's with a label stuck to them.
In that case, are they worth buying? Do we know what bitrate they have on them? I've not purchased anything from Pristine yet, but I'd love to get the Leinsdorf Tannhäuser. I'm wondering if I should just stick with either the 24-bit or 16-bit FLAC. Maybe the 24-bit is overkill considering the age of these recordings. Any thoughts on this?
 
#4,914 · (Edited)
I think they are 16 bit. The purchases come with free MP3 at 320 kbps downloads. When the CD’s arrive I rip them in FLAC and then listen through my Cown Plenue.

I’ve put some thought into this but others may have greater knowledge and may disagree... here goes... I like CD’s, I like having them for my library. I do not have the time and wherewithal to download the music and print the labels right now. From what I learned, CD’s aren’t designed for 24 bit, nor is it necessary for “Historical” recordings. True 24 bit would have to be recorded as such in the very beginning of the recording process which obviously isn’t possible for any historical recordings we would be listening to.

I used to deceive myself into thinking I was some kind of audiophile- I am not. I do know that everywhere I go there is background noise. I do not listen in a vacuum. For example, I may be on the road, at home I may be near the fridge or a/c in the background, etc. So what was the point in thinking I had perfect sound quality? As I became enamored with the mono sound of historical recordings I became less bothered with surface noise and the like. I listen now for quality of conducting and singing. For all the minutiae of orchestration I may put on a modern recording but most times the modern recordings don’t have the same quality conducting or singing as the historical versions, IMO.

As for FLAC vs MP3, I learned that FLAC enables you to keep making copies without losing data over time while MP3 copies will degenerate with each copy. So I use FLAC but don’t deceive myself anymore into thinking I can tell the difference (except for no breaks in between numbers with FLAC).

The Tannhäuser is worth it! In whatever format you buy it! Trust me! I don’t always think Pristine is worth it, but for Tannhäuser I rarely turn to no other!

As an aside, I bought the Bychov Lohengrin which was supposed to have incredible sound quality, but to my ears it does not. The quiets are too quiet and the loudspeaker too loud. Anyone back me up on this?
 
#4,918 · (Edited)
As for FLAC vs MP3, I learned that FLAC enables you to keep making copies without losing data over time while MP3 copies will degenerate with each copy.
this is not accurate. one digital copy is identical to another digital copy, it's literally numerical code that is the same between two things (i.e. "a copy").

what you probably are thinking of is that it's not recommended to convert from one lossy format to another, or to re-compress from an already compressed source because the result will be worse than an equal bitrate compression or conversion from a non-lossy format. So a 256 kbps mp3 compressed from a FLAC may sound better than a 256 kbps mp3 compressed from a 320 kbps mp3 (although it may not--a 320 kbps mp3 is a very high quality source. but it's not recommended). But you can create a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy ad infinitum and the quality of the 10,000th copy will be identical to the quality of the first.

i personally prefer 320 kbps mp3s. they're portable, can be played by any player, about half the size of flacs, and from a lot of comparison testing trying very hard to hear it, i can't tell the difference between 320 kbps and a lossless source. i can definitely hear the difference with 160, i can hear it some of the time (enough to be distracting and annoying) with 192, and can virtually never tell the difference with 256. So, 320 is plenty for me. When i do buy a higher quality source like a cd or flac, i convert it to 320 and give away or throw away the cd and throw away the flac files.
 
#4,916 ·
Not to derail the current conversation, but I just wanted to note in this thread that I'm finding the Krauss/Bayreuth 1953 Ring to be absolutely outstanding, and this is coming from a guy with next to zero prior experience with the Ring. The singing, the conducting! As for the music itself, I am really blown away. This is just as great as I always expected it would be. I've never had so much patience for opera before. :D I've two down (Rheingold & Walküre), two to go. I will likely space it out, but I'll try and finish the final two Ring operas before month-end. While I do want a stereo Ring at some point, count me a member of "team mono Wagner" :lol: ... as long as the sound quality is as good as it is here.
 
#4,919 ·
Thank you- I stand corrected. I have tried my best to understand all these formats and it is not always easy. I thank you for the clarification.

My manager at work was telling me a few years ago that Neil Young was trying to develop a 24bit technology CD and player for better sound quality. In my mind I was thinking, “ Who needs to hear Neil Young in 24 bit?” I guess to each there own!
 
#4,933 ·
Thank you- I stand corrected. I have tried my best to understand all these formats and it is not always easy. I thank you for the clarification.

My manager at work was telling me a few years ago that Neil Young was trying to develop a 24bit technology CD and player for better sound quality. In my mind I was thinking, " Who needs to hear Neil Young in 24 bit?" I guess to each there own!
And I'm sure your manager was thinking, "who needs to hear 70-year-old Wagner live bootlegs in 24 bit"?
 
#4,925 ·
All this talk of the 52 Tristan and I couldn't help to put it on and blast it!

For those who wish to hear Flagstad sing Isoldes curse from 1948 and hit the high notes in the fullness of her unique timbre there is this gem:

Smile Automotive tire Motor vehicle Font Vehicle door
 
#4,928 ·
The Pristine probably has the best sound, but it's mucho dinero..
The remastered EMI would be fine,
The sound is very good.
 
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#4,940 ·
The ebay vendor screwed up and sent me Bernstein's Tristan instead of Furtwangler. Should I keep it? I wasn't even aware that Bernstein recorded this opera.
 
#4,951 · (Edited)
I quickly sampled Windgassen vs Hofmann (sp!) and still prefer a tad more "legato" and baritonal approach of Hofmann, the recording balance clearly is in Windgassen's favor and he offers have more impact here (recorded in Bayreuth Festspielhaus).
Another recording (live from Bayreuth Festspielhaus) with Ramon Vinay and we can hear the same balance between the tenor and orchestra, as if recording microphone was located in the near soundfield.
But, as we know, orchestra in Bayreuth is hidden under the stage while in Bernstein's case it was on the podium and the resulting balance reflects that (I have the full video production as well, priceless document!)

 
#4,956 ·
Listening to Nilsson now on Bohm's 1966 recording. She obviously sounds more disciplined and in control which produces a more graceful sound and performance. Just my two cents from someone who knows jack about opera singers.
 
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