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Beethoven and Race

29K views 69 replies 26 participants last post by  BiscuityBoyle 
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#1 ·
I've searched but I haven't seen a thread on this. I feel if TC is to touch all the bases of classical music then this needs to be discussed.

Going through my sizable book collection, I came upon a series I had bought many years ago--"Sex and Race" by J. A. Rogers in three volumes. I remember reading these and finding them interesting although I didn't agree with a lot of the conjecture. For example, the black Madonna-and-child statues are not depicting Mary and Jesus as "Negro" as Rogers seems to think. Some of the other conjecture I cannot pass any judgment on as I am not an expert in these areas (or any areas to be painfully honest). One instance concerns Beethoven whom Rogers asserts had some African ancestry. Turns out it has quite a bit of presence on the internet both pro and con but Rogers was the first to raise the issue as far as I know.

Rogers presents some intriguing evidence (anecdotal though it is) of people who knew the composer or his biographers describing his complexion and facial traits:

"Rounded nose, black-brownish complexion." From Fischer's Beethoven The Man, Vol. 1, p. 1, 1929

"His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his already brown face still darker."--Carl Czerny from Beethoven: Impressions of his contemporaries, arranged by Oscar Sonneck, p. 26, 1926

From this same book, Beethoven is described as "dark" (Grillparzer, p. 154), "brown" (Bettina von Arnim, p.77), "brownish" (Rellstab, p. 180).

Gelinek describes him as "Short, ugly, dark" from Nohl's Beethoven Depicted By His Contemporaries, p. 37, 1880)

Fanny Giannatasio del Rio, who was in love with Beethoven, wrote in the biography, An Unrequited Love: An Episode in the Life of Beethoven, p.60, 1876: "Beethoven could not possibly be called a handsome man. His somewhat flat broad nose and wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto."

According to Rogers, Beethoven's teacher, Haydn could also have been black and relates an incident of Beethoven biographer Thayer who heard from Andre de Hevesy who heard it from Carpani that when Prince Esterhazy first heard a new symphony he asked the name of the composer who was brought before him. "What!" exclaimed Esterhazy upon seeing Haydn for the first time, "the music is by this blackamoor? Well, my fine blackamoor, henceforward thou art in my service!" Carpani also stated that Haydn was after that frequently referred to as "the Moor." Rogers, though, does bring up the possibility that Haydn may actually have had a Turkish ancestry although he presents nothing concrete to back up the assertion.

Thayer brings up the incident in order to point that Beethoven "had even more of the Moor in his features than his master [Haydn]."

It should be an easy enough issue to settle, we have Beethoven's death mask:





Based on this alone, Beethoven could very well indeed have an African ancestry. I think all of us have seen black people that look like this. The real test is not so much that we study his ancestry or split hairs over whether he was Portuguese or Moorish as opposed to true "Negro." You can rationalize your way out of anything if you are determined enough. I agree with Rogers that the real test would be simply to dress him in American street clothes, stand him on any street corner in some city like Detroit or DC or Chicago or Compton and see how many people would immediately assume him to be just another black man.
 
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#49 · (Edited)
I've occasionally noticed syncopation in Verdi's music. I guess that means Verdi was at least part black? :rolleyes:

Seriously, though, I've heard the OP's argument before (as well as a similar one about Jane Austen), and I believe that people who make such arguments are underestimating the extent to which, in the eyes of fair-skinned Northern Europeans, any swarthiness of complexion appeared "black"; so when contemporaries described someone as "black" they didn't necessarily mean "African." I'm not saying Beethoven had no African blood, but as someone remarked upthread I think that if he did have African blood it was probably a very small amount. Frankly, to me he looks more Belgian/Flemish than anything else.
 
#50 ·
I agree with Rogers that the real test would be simply to dress him in American street clothes, stand him on any street corner in some city like Detroit or DC or Chicago or Compton and see how many people would immediately assume him to be just another black man.
Damn. American imperialism has advanced so far that nowadays 19th century German history is reinterpreted through the lense of 21th century American race policies? When did this happen? Should I bow to my new over-lords?

But what if in 100 years China is the global super-power and the average 2115 resident of Beijing thinks he looked vaguely Chinese?

And what do current South African think about Beethoven? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
#53 ·
Damn. American imperialism has advanced so far that nowadays 19th century German history is reinterpreted through the lense of 21th century American race policies? When did this happen? Should I bow to my new over-lords?
When? The same year the Illuminati subverted the United States monetary system and put their symbols on our bank notes, the same year we reverse-engineered alien technology found in interstellar vehicles secreted in Nevada's infamous Area 51, the same year we developed from this technology a new weapon that transforms regular humans into Scotsmen. Should you bow? How many kilts do you own? Do you like bagpipe music?
 
#52 · (Edited)
Jesus was a Middle Eastern semite who was exposed to a lot of strong sunlight. His complexion had to be dark.

Not having cable TV or a desktop computer, he would have been out in that strong Middle Eastern sun a lot.

One thing's for sure-he did not look Northern European, the way I see many churches picture him in their literature. His followers wish he looked like that. Dream on!!

One cannot equate the reasons for Beethoven's dark complexion with that of Jesus.
 
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#57 ·
I jut thought of a Python-esque skit where old footage is dug up showing Beethoven on the basketball court burning singlehandedly through the opposition front line consisting of Grieg, Bach and Mahler then does a terrific fake-out on Vivaldi and then dunks over top of Tchaikovsky AND picks up the foul!!

The announcer will have a German accent saying: "Stravinsky sets up the screen but Beethoven rolls past him with a beautiful behind-the-back move!"

Color man: "That was really an ace move by Beethoven, Ernst!"

Announcer: "Beethoven stops in the corner dribbling off the clock sizing up Dunstable guarding the post."

Color man: "Dunstable? He still allowed on the court at his age, Ernst?"

Announcer: "And Beethoven drives toward the basket and here comes the double team of Berlioz and Brahms to squeeze him out of the paint!"

Color man: "I question the wisdom of that, Ernst! I think I would have went with the Strausses on this one!"

Announcer; "Beethoven stops, turns and guns and HE FILLS IT UP!!!!!

Color man: "Outstanding move, Ernst, just outstanding! I don't think anyone out there can doubt that Beethoven is black now!"

The footage then gets posted on youtube and goes viral. Pretty soon, kids are wearing jerseys like Beethoven's in the footage displaying his name and the number 5 crossed out and the number 9 drawn in.

Sports talk shows would have people calling in, "Yeah, okay, maybe Mozart played a decisive role in the evolution of the sonata-form, Colin, but his abilities as a guard stunk and that's why Beethoven sunk seven three-pointers over him in a single game! That's humiliation, Colin, on a whole new level!"

"Well, Mozart was always overrated as a guard, caller, but let's remember that Prokofiev has a much more effective defense holding Beethoven to just three B-flats in a single movement!"

And so it goes.
 
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#64 ·
The following webpage :

http://kpkollenborn.blogspot.com/2014/12/15-historical-figures-you-didnt-know.html

say the following about Beethoven:

The famous classical composer's mother was a moor. It's a fact that became popular again after this cast of his African facial features contradicted the "idealized" paintings of the man history likes to re-imagine.
The question was brought to modern science, but recent DNA evidence was inconclusive. For more information, please refer to the related link from the Washington Post. The research team also said that future DNA analysis might answer lingering questions about Beethoven's ethnicity. As a young man, the dark-complexioned Beethoven sometimes was called "the Moor," and some historians have questioned whether he had African blood. Walsh said his analysis of the hair strands showed "no wrinkles or bends" typical among people of African descent, but that more tests may be conducted.
 
#65 ·
Like Beethoven, Goebbels was dark eyed and quite swarthy but presumably back then no-one questioned HIS ancestry.

Actor Peter Ustinov was part Ethiopian, and folk singer Davey Graham's mother was from Guyana but as they were light skinned and blue-eyed who would guess from looking at them? Appearances are not arbitrary.
 
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