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Thread: Observations about Pythagoras

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    Default Observations about Pythagoras

    WIK:
    [Pythagoras of Samos
    was an Ionian Greek philosopher, mathematician, and has been credited as the founder of the movement called Pythagoreanism. Most of the information about Pythagoras was written down centuries after he lived, so very little reliable information is known about him. He was born on the island of Samos, and traveled, visiting Egypt and Greece, and maybe India, and in 520 BC returned to Samos.Around 530 BC, he moved to Croton, in Magna Graecia, and there established some kind of school or guild.
    Pythagoras made influential contributions to philosophy and religion in the late 6th century BC. He is often revered as a great mathematician and scientist and is best known for the Pythagorean theorem which bears his name. However, because legend and obfuscation cloud his work even more than that of the other pre-Socratic philosophers, one can give only a tentative account of his teachings, and some have questioned whether he contributed much to mathematics or natural philosophy. Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors. Some accounts mention that the philosophy associated with Pythagoras was related to mathematics and that numbers were important. It was said that he was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom, and Pythagorean ideas exercised a marked influence on Aristotle, and Plato, and through him, all of Western philosophy.]

    So, what about Pythagoras and his connection to music? Any thoughts, assertions?
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    Pythagoras was one of the greatest philosophers and mathematicians of ancient Greece.

    The real crown of his theory was "tetraktys", the true source of wisdom,
    the first 4 natural numbers, connected with various relations.

    But pythagorean theorem made him famous for eternity.

    Harmony is based on tetraktys, because from these numbers, (1,2,3,4)
    the harmonic ratios of intervals of fourth, fifth and eighth can be constructed.

    He discovered the relation between the length of the chords
    and the tone height they provide.

    to find this, he used an instrument he created by himself, called "monochordo".

    "World is numbers"

    any doubt about this?

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    Pythagoras drew a lot of stares
    His clothes were old and full of tears
    So people sneered
    And pulled his beard
    But still, he figured out that thing (yes I know this doesn't scan) about the square root of the sum of two squares
    (but at least it rhymes)
    Last edited by KenOC; Sep-10-2015 at 00:04.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Clara s
    Pythagoras was one of the greatest philosophers and mathematicians of ancient Greece.

    The real crown of his theory was "tetraktys", the true source of wisdom,
    the first 4 natural numbers, connected with various relations.

    But pythagorean theorem made him famous for eternity.

    Harmony is based on tetraktys, because from these numbers, (1,2,3,4)
    the harmonic ratios of intervals of fourth, fifth and eighth can be constructed.

    He discovered the relation between the length of the chords
    and the tone height they provide.

    to find this, he used an instrument he created by himself, called "monochordo".

    "World is numbers"

    any doubt about this?
    I have no doubts, but I mentioned Pythagoras elsewhere and there were some who tried to minimize his influence on Western music.

    Firstly, Pythagoras lived so long ago that many of the ideas which he might have come up with are "legend", or they have his name attached to them as the 'school' of Pythagoras. Should we let these factors diminish our enthusiasm, or shed doubt on his influence?
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member Victor Redseal's Avatar
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    Pythagoras is credited with discovering the musical comma. He discovered the musical notes were ratios related to length and frequency. If one took a lyre string tightened at both ends, plucked open we could arbitrarily call it 1. If we halve the length of the string, it will play exactly one octave higher (i.e. it vibrates exactly twice the rate of 1). So the octave can be expressed as a ratio of 2:1 or 1:2. However, if we shorten 1 by a third of its length, it produces a note that plays a fifth higher. The ratio of a fifth is then 2:3 or 3:2. These ratios are called intervals and Pythagoras calculated them thus:

    1. C – Fundamental (1)
    2. C# – Minor 2nd (15/16)
    3. D – Major 2nd (8/9)
    4. D# – Minor 3rd (5/6)
    5. E – Major 3rd (4/5)
    6. F – Perfect 4th (3/4)
    7. F# – Tritone (5/7)
    8. G – Perfect 5th (2/3)
    9. G# – Minor 6th (5/8)
    10. A – Major 6th (3/5)
    11. A# – Minor 7th (5/9)
    12. B – Major 7th (8/15)
    13. C’ – Octave (1/2)

    Just remember that the ratios can be inverted depending on whether you lengthen or shorten the string.

    Now, since there are six whole steps in a scale (e.g. in the space of an octave) and a whole step is 9/8, then if we raise that ratio by the power of 6, it should come out to exactly 2. Does it? No. It works out to 2.073 which is only slightly off but the human ear can perceive it and it sounds wrong to us. What is means is that there is a tiny but noticeable drift between enharmonic equivalents such as A# and Bb or E# and F. This is the Pythagorean or ditonic comma.

    Suppose we measure the 5ths in an octave. There’s only one 5th in an octave. Two 5ths will pass out of the octave. So, if we start measuring 5ths, we have to find a way to keep the tones within the octave. Once the 5th is out of the octave, its value must be halved to keep it within the octave. Starting at C, for example, the first 5th interval ends at G and we know that the ratio is 3/2 (or 2/3). The next 5th takes us to D and so we would square 3/2 to obtain 9/4 but that passes out of the octave (is greater than 2 and an octave must be exactly 2/1). So we multiply 9/4 by 1/2 to obtain 9/8, which is less than 2 and so is within the octave. Next, we jump up to A which is mathematically obtained by multiplying 9/8 by 3/2 or 27/16 which is within the octave. If we keep going through 5ths until we pass through all 12 semitones (after A, we go to E, B, F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, F and C) we end up with a final value of 262144/531441.

    The true octave, however, would yield 262144/524288. Again, the actual length of the string would be somewhat shorter than the true octave string length and so would be sharp. Our differential is the ratio of 531441/524288 which is the ditonic comma (not “diatonic”). That is the Pythagorean comma.

    Another comma is called syntonic:

    If we form a circle of the C major octave where the full octave is 360 degrees exactly, then C=0 and 360, D=320 (360 x 8/9), E=288 (360 x 4/5), F=270 (360 x 3/4), G=240 (360 x 2/3), A=216, B=192, and C’=180. From D to F is a minor 3rd (3 half-steps) with a ratio of 320/270 or 6.4/5.4 even though the true ratio should 6/5 or 324/270. So the actual difference is 324/320 or 81/80. That ratio is called the syntonic comma. From C to G is a perfect 5th of 360/240 or 3/2. However, if we were to measure a perfect 5th in the next octave from D to A or 320/216 ratio, we notice that it is an 80/54 ratio. A true perfect 5th would be 81/54 or 3/2 and so, again, we end up with a discrepancy of 81/80 (oddly, the reciprocal of this number is 0.987654321). The next octave after that would yield the major 6th (F-D) and the perfect 4th (A-D) also off by the syntonic comma. The comma is very noticeable and must be dispersed in some manner.

    Method I

    One way to disperse the comma is through adjusting the major 3rds in the octave. In a 12-tone octave, there are three major 3rds (4 half-steps x 3 = 12 half-steps). A true major 3rd has a 5:4 ratio, that is, if you shorten a string by 4/5 but retain the same tension, the string will play a major 3rd interval higher. If we start at middle C, our three major 3rds would be C-E, E-G#, Ab-C (remember that Ab is the enharmonic equivalent of G#). Since the octave interval must always be an exact 2:1 ratio, the Ab-C major 3rd will be a bit flat. Why?

    Since a major 3rd is 4/5, then we would cube that ratio to obtain 64/125 for the full octave. But a full octave is 64/128 (1:2 ratio). Since 64/125 represents a longer string length than 1/2, the major 3rds will be noticeably flatter than in a true octave since a string’s length is proportional to the pitch. The discrepancy is the ratio of 125/128 or 0.9765625, which is called a diesis. Each major 3rd interval in the octave must be sharpened slightly by a third of the diesis or about 0.3255208333.

    Method II

    We may also measure the minor 3rds in an octave of which there will be four. Using C major as an example and starting at middle C, our minor 3rds will be C-Eb, Eb-F#, F#-A and A-C’. Since a true minor 3rd would have 5/6 ratio, then the total value of an octave in minor 3rds is 5/6 raised to the power of 4 or 625/1296. The actual value of a full octave is 648/1296 or 1/2. Since the string length of an octave of minor 3rds is somewhat shorter than a true octave resulting in a higher pitch, the minor 3rds will be a bit sharp and must be uniformly flattened. So, the ratio of 648/625 or 1.0368 tells us the total difference in tone and so each minor 3rd interval must be flattened by a quarter of 1.0368 which is 0.2592. While other ratios are called a comma or diesis, this 648:625 ratio has never been named for some reason.

    Method III

    In this method, we solve the ditonic comma which also solves the syntonic comma. Pythagoras was said to have solved his comma but we are not told how. We do it today by tempering. The value of the ratio of the ditonic comma 531441/524288 is approximately 1.01364327. So we would flatten our 5ths by 1.01364327/12 or about 0.08447. This is the method for tempering the 12-tone scale.
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    And He replied, "So that she could love you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Redseal View Post
    Pythagoras is credited with discovering the musical comma. He discovered the musical notes were ratios related to length and frequency. If one took a lyre string tightened at both ends, plucked open we could arbitrarily call it 1. If we halve the length of the string, it will play exactly one octave higher (i.e. it vibrates exactly twice the rate of 1). So the octave can be expressed as a ratio of 2:1 or 1:2. However, if we shorten 1 by a third of its length, it produces a note that plays a fifth higher. The ratio of a fifth is then 2:3 or 3:2. These ratios are called intervals and Pythagoras calculated them thus:

    1. C – Fundamental (1)
    2. C# – Minor 2nd (15/16)
    3. D – Major 2nd (8/9)
    4. D# – Minor 3rd (5/6)
    5. E – Major 3rd (4/5)
    6. F – Perfect 4th (3/4)
    7. F# – Tritone (5/7)
    8. G – Perfect 5th (2/3)
    9. G# – Minor 6th (5/8)
    10. A – Major 6th (3/5)
    11. A# – Minor 7th (5/9)
    12. B – Major 7th (8/15)
    13. C’ – Octave (1/2)

    Just remember that the ratios can be inverted depending on whether you lengthen or shorten the string.

    Now, since there are six whole steps in a scale (e.g. in the space of an octave) and a whole step is 9/8, then if we raise that ratio by the power of 6, it should come out to exactly 2. Does it? No. It works out to 2.073 which is only slightly off but the human ear can perceive it and it sounds wrong to us. What is means is that there is a tiny but noticeable drift between enharmonic equivalents such as A# and Bb or E# and F. This is the Pythagorean or ditonic comma.

    Suppose we measure the 5ths in an octave. There’s only one 5th in an octave. Two 5ths will pass out of the octave. So, if we start measuring 5ths, we have to find a way to keep the tones within the octave. Once the 5th is out of the octave, its value must be halved to keep it within the octave. Starting at C, for example, the first 5th interval ends at G and we know that the ratio is 3/2 (or 2/3). The next 5th takes us to D and so we would square 3/2 to obtain 9/4 but that passes out of the octave (is greater than 2 and an octave must be exactly 2/1). So we multiply 9/4 by 1/2 to obtain 9/8, which is less than 2 and so is within the octave. Next, we jump up to A which is mathematically obtained by multiplying 9/8 by 3/2 or 27/16 which is within the octave. If we keep going through 5ths until we pass through all 12 semitones (after A, we go to E, B, F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, F and C) we end up with a final value of 262144/531441.

    The true octave, however, would yield 262144/524288. Again, the actual length of the string would be somewhat shorter than the true octave string length and so would be sharp. Our differential is the ratio of 531441/524288 which is the ditonic comma (not “diatonic”). That is the Pythagorean comma.

    Another comma is called syntonic:

    If we form a circle of the C major octave where the full octave is 360 degrees exactly, then C=0 and 360, D=320 (360 x 8/9), E=288 (360 x 4/5), F=270 (360 x 3/4), G=240 (360 x 2/3), A=216, B=192, and C’=180. From D to F is a minor 3rd (3 half-steps) with a ratio of 320/270 or 6.4/5.4 even though the true ratio should 6/5 or 324/270. So the actual difference is 324/320 or 81/80. That ratio is called the syntonic comma. From C to G is a perfect 5th of 360/240 or 3/2. However, if we were to measure a perfect 5th in the next octave from D to A or 320/216 ratio, we notice that it is an 80/54 ratio. A true perfect 5th would be 81/54 or 3/2 and so, again, we end up with a discrepancy of 81/80 (oddly, the reciprocal of this number is 0.987654321). The next octave after that would yield the major 6th (F-D) and the perfect 4th (A-D) also off by the syntonic comma. The comma is very noticeable and must be dispersed in some manner.

    Method I

    One way to disperse the comma is through adjusting the major 3rds in the octave. In a 12-tone octave, there are three major 3rds (4 half-steps x 3 = 12 half-steps). A true major 3rd has a 5:4 ratio, that is, if you shorten a string by 4/5 but retain the same tension, the string will play a major 3rd interval higher. If we start at middle C, our three major 3rds would be C-E, E-G#, Ab-C (remember that Ab is the enharmonic equivalent of G#). Since the octave interval must always be an exact 2:1 ratio, the Ab-C major 3rd will be a bit flat. Why?

    Since a major 3rd is 4/5, then we would cube that ratio to obtain 64/125 for the full octave. But a full octave is 64/128 (1:2 ratio). Since 64/125 represents a longer string length than 1/2, the major 3rds will be noticeably flatter than in a true octave since a string’s length is proportional to the pitch. The discrepancy is the ratio of 125/128 or 0.9765625, which is called a diesis. Each major 3rd interval in the octave must be sharpened slightly by a third of the diesis or about 0.3255208333.

    Method II

    We may also measure the minor 3rds in an octave of which there will be four. Using C major as an example and starting at middle C, our minor 3rds will be C-Eb, Eb-F#, F#-A and A-C’. Since a true minor 3rd would have 5/6 ratio, then the total value of an octave in minor 3rds is 5/6 raised to the power of 4 or 625/1296. The actual value of a full octave is 648/1296 or 1/2. Since the string length of an octave of minor 3rds is somewhat shorter than a true octave resulting in a higher pitch, the minor 3rds will be a bit sharp and must be uniformly flattened. So, the ratio of 648/625 or 1.0368 tells us the total difference in tone and so each minor 3rd interval must be flattened by a quarter of 1.0368 which is 0.2592. While other ratios are called a comma or diesis, this 648:625 ratio has never been named for some reason.

    Method III

    In this method, we solve the ditonic comma which also solves the syntonic comma. Pythagoras was said to have solved his comma but we are not told how. We do it today by tempering. The value of the ratio of the ditonic comma 531441/524288 is approximately 1.01364327. So we would flatten our 5ths by 1.01364327/12 or about 0.08447. This is the method for tempering the 12-tone scale.
    excellent Victor

    you are named a Prominent Pythagorean
    in the steps of Philolaus and Eurytus

    ps you've got definitely the two of the three requirements in your life,
    your music and your philosophy
    I do not know about the hot cup of tea

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I have no doubts, but I mentioned Pythagoras elsewhere and there were some who tried to minimize his influence on Western music.

    Firstly, Pythagoras lived so long ago that many of the ideas which he might have come up with are "legend", or they have his name attached to them as the 'school' of Pythagoras. Should we let these factors diminish our enthusiasm, or shed doubt on his influence?
    definitely not

    his whole philosophy had strong characteristics of mysticism
    and this brought fame very rapidly.

    Also this brought a strong public reaction,
    which ended to the destruction of his school

    very complicated life and philosophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Pythagoras drew a lot of stares
    His clothes were old and full of tears
    So people sneered
    And pulled his beard
    But still, he figured out that thing (yes I know this doesn't scan) about the square root of the sum of two squares
    (but at least it rhymes)
    one small objection

    his clothes were clean and white, as was the uniform of his school,
    to match the purity of his philosophy

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    But when I tried to associate Pythagoras with the 12-note division of the octave we currently use (although ours is equally tempered), and, as mentioned above, the stacking of twelve fifths over seven octaves gets us almost back to our starting note (the remainder being called the ditonic or Pythagoran comma), I was met with a withering firestorm of protest.

    It was pointed out to me that Pythagoras only used a seven note scale, and had no need for twelve. Why, then, is this remainder of the circle of fifths called the "Pythagoran comma" if he did not divide the octave into 12 parts?
    Last edited by Krummhorn; Sep-13-2015 at 06:46.
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    Senior Member Victor Redseal's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure the "scholars" know what they are talking about. How can we be sure the Greeks didn't have 12 TET? Here is something that has always bugged me:

    The Greeks had a little thing called isopsephia which is when each letter in the alphabet is given a numerical value. Those words that have the same numerical value are considered identical concepts--be that as it may. Now, we know today that the value of a half-step or semitone is calculated to the 12 root of 2 or 1.0595 (approximately), that is, if you raise 1.0595 to the 12th power, it will equal 2 which is the perfect octave. Strangely, the Greek god Apollo--who is the god of music--is actually called Apollon in Greek and using isopsephia, his name has the value of 1061. One of Apollo's titles is Pythias (from which Pythagoras is derived--"Pythias speaking") which adds up to 1059. That's a little close for a coincidence.

    Hermes was the brother of Apollo and made a lyre of a tortoise shell and gave it to him indicating a musical relationship between the brothers. In isopsephia, Hermes is 353. The author of the Corpus Hermeticum was said to be Hermes Trismegistus or "thrice-great Hermes." What does that mean? Well, if we multiply 353 by 3, we get 1059. If we shorten the string by a 3rd, we get 706/1059 or 2/3, the ratio of the perfect 5th. Were the Greeks encoding the secret of 12 TET?
    "God," asked Adam, "why did you make Eve so beautiful?"
    And He replied, "So that you could love her."
    "But God," asked Adam, "why did you make her so stupid?"
    And He replied, "So that she could love you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Redseal View Post
    I'm not so sure the "scholars" know what they are talking about. How can we be sure the Greeks didn't have 12 TET? Here is something that has always bugged me:

    The Greeks had a little thing called isopsephia which is when each letter in the alphabet is given a numerical value. Those words that have the same numerical value are considered identical concepts--be that as it may. Now, we know today that the value of a half-step or semitone is calculated to the 12 root of 2 or 1.0595 (approximately), that is, if you raise 1.0595 to the 12th power, it will equal 2 which is the perfect octave. Strangely, the Greek god Apollo--who is the god of music--is actually called Apollon in Greek and using isopsephia, his name has the value of 1061. One of Apollo's titles is Pythias (from which Pythagoras is derived--"Pythias speaking") which adds up to 1059. That's a little close for a coincidence.

    Hermes was the brother of Apollo and made a lyre of a tortoise shell and gave it to him indicating a musical relationship between the brothers. In isopsephia, Hermes is 353. The author of the Corpus Hermeticum was said to be Hermes Trismegistus or "thrice-great Hermes." What does that mean? Well, if we multiply 353 by 3, we get 1059. If we shorten the string by a 3rd, we get 706/1059 or 2/3, the ratio of the perfect 5th. Were the Greeks encoding the secret of 12 TET?
    No they were not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Redseal View Post
    Pythagoras is credited with discovering the musical comma.
    By whom?

    These ratios are called intervals and Pythagoras calculated them thus:

    1. C – Fundamental (1)
    2. C# – Minor 2nd (15/16)
    3. D – Major 2nd (8/9)
    4. D# – Minor 3rd (5/6)
    5. E – Major 3rd (4/5)
    6. F – Perfect 4th (3/4)
    7. F# – Tritone (5/7)
    8. G – Perfect 5th (2/3)
    9. G# – Minor 6th (5/8)
    10. A – Major 6th (3/5)
    11. A# – Minor 7th (5/9)
    12. B – Major 7th (8/15)
    13. C’ – Octave (1/2)
    Except that all of that would have been totally alien in the time period you are talking about.

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    We have no evidence of any scale at all to be attached to Pythagoras, or any other musical procedure for that matter. Also the idea of stacking 3:2s would have been a complete anachronism to the ancient greeks.

    Ancient Greek music theory is very interesting however, particularly in the differences between Aristoxenus and Ptolemy. If you are interested in being able to hear the scales that they suggest, I heartily recommend the program ZynAddSubFX which is an easy to use and accurate midi program that can reproduce exact intervals.
    Last edited by Che2007; Sep-13-2015 at 03:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Why, then, is this remainder of the circle of fifths called the "Pythagoran comma" if he did not divide the octave into 12 parts?
    It is called the pythagorean comma because it relates to the pythagorean school not because it was a discovery of Pythagoras'. It also is to do with medieval music theory and canonics. I did list you all those books/articles on the subject.
    Last edited by Krummhorn; Sep-13-2015 at 06:47.

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    If anyone wants to do some reading on this subject I suggest Andrew Barker (The Science of Harmonics in Classical Greece), Thomas Mathiesen (Apollo's Lyre), Richard Crocker (Pythagorean Mathematics and Music) or one of the many entries about early music theory in Cambridge History of Western Music Theory.

    Richard Crocker (Pythagorean Mathematics and Music) relates particularly strongly to this discussion.
    Last edited by Che2007; Sep-13-2015 at 04:32.

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