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Thread: Thoughts About Cante Flamenco

  1. #91
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default The Antología: Some Corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefinaHW View Post
    The Antologia del Cante Flamenco was released in a two CD box set in 1988.

    You can listen to it free on Spotify:
    https://open.spotify.com/user/fcalle...fE9bShea4p8NFZ
    Many thanks to JosefinaHW for finding and posting the Spotify link to the classic Antología. We can thus hear all of this history-making effort, and immerse ourselves in the unique, distinctive toque of Perico el del Lunar viejo's accompaniment. A few corrections need to be noted--many of the palos' singers are misidentified on the Spotify listing of tracks: please note that all toque is by Perico. The correct singers for many of the palos are the first names listed, but many also are wrong. Here are the correct listings for the following:

    La Caña: Rafael Romero; Soleares: Pepe el de la Matrona; Livianas: Pepe; Serranas: Pepe; Cantes de Trilla: Bernardo el de los Lobitos; Nanas: Bernardo; Peteneras: Rafael; Marianas: Bernardo; Alboreas: Rafael; Toñas: Rafael; Martinete: Rafael; Deblas: Rafael.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Aug-12-2016 at 00:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Many thanks to JosefinaHW for finding and posting the Spotify link to the classic Antologia. We can thus hear all of this history-making effort, and immerse ourselves in the unique, distinctive toque of Perico el del Lunar viejo's accompaniment. A few corrections need to be noted--many of the palos' singers are misidentified on the Spotify listing of tracks: please note that all toque is by Perico. The correct singers for many of the palos are the first names listed, but many also are wrong. Here are the correct listings for the following:

    La Caña: Rafael Romero; Soleares: Pepe el de la Matrona; Livianas: Pepe; Serranas: Pepe; Cantes de Trilla: Bernardo el de los Lobitos; Nanas: Bernardo; Peteneras: Rafael; Maruanas: Bernardo; Alboreas: Rafael; Toñas; Rafael; Martinete: Rafael; Deblas: Rafael.
    I did not think to check that, Strange Magic. Thank you. I do not use Spotify but since it is free I've begun to mention it or post links to it because it is accessible to more people. I will check everything I post going forward. I will also submit the corrections to Spotify's Customer Support.
    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Aug-11-2016 at 23:41.

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    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JosefinaHW View Post
    :StarThrower: Traditional Cante Flamenco is timeless. When I and many other fans listen to it we are not trying to re-create music of the past or return to the past. Cante Flamenco is an art dedicated to human emotions. We experience the same emotions as people who lived 50, 100, 1000, 3000 years ago! Will evolution change the existence of or the nature of human emotions? I don't know, but as of now it has not.
    I agree that all great art is timeless. But timeless and contemporary are not the same thing. Strange Magic stated that he is not a fan of Paco De Lucia, because his music is too guitar centered. He wanted to do other things and not work strictly within traditional formats. And all I said is that I am a fan. I can enjoy both.
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

    - Marcia Bjornerud, Geologist

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    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    I agree that all great art is timeless. But timeless and contemporary are not the same thing. Strange Magic stated that he is not a fan of Paco De Lucia, because his music is too guitar centered. He wanted to do other things and not work strictly within traditional formats. And all I said is that I am a fan. I can enjoy both.
    :Starthrower: Thank you for taking the time to respond.

    Since joining TC I have been perplexed by people who say something to the effect that they are die-hard contemporary music fans with some accompanying level of disdain for music of the past: “Bach’s vocal music is a relic of a pathetic dead worldview,” “I don’t listen to the music of dead Germans,” or in a much kinder way, your statement in this thread that “if other musicians want to preserve their folk heritage by trying to re-create music of the past that is up to them. But my feeling is you can’t go back. Same with classical music, which is why…….” I know that at first you were talking about a particular guitar player, but unless I am way off, I don’t read your statement as high praise for current cantaors and tocaors of authentic Cante Flamenco. You seem to me to be saying that they are using outdated forms and styles and they have very little that is new to say to a contemporary listener. I can relate to the excitement of the new and the exotic, but an appreciation of the new doesn’t necessarily entail a devaluation of something already in existence.

    Several prominent CF artists have died recently, so there are many articles that say it’s the end of an era or the death of authentic CF, etc.. Here comes me discovering this captivating, totally new thing that speaks directly to me at this stage of my life and the artists are dying, the art form is supposedly dying, the flamenco lifestyle is supposedly dying! I’m very defensive about the subject right now and I apologize if I came at you like a guard dog.

    Whether or not I misunderstood your opinion of CF, I’d like you to read my point of view and tell me in what way you agree or disagree with it to help me better understand this emphasis on contemporary music and this corresponding tinge of negativity towards music of the past.

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    :Starthrower: For me, a piece of music is both timeless and contemporary if it speaks to me, teaches me, gives me an insight, challenges me, answers a question that is bothering me, and/or somehow touches me directly at a given moment in my life. It is contemporaneous because it is so meaningful that it is as if it were composed for me at that moment, even though it really was composed a 100 or 300 years earlier.

    I also think that when it comes down to the fundamentals, people share more similarities than differences. It’s been suggested that all emotions are variants of four basic emotions: sadness, anger, happiness and fear. Whatever the number, I think the vast majority of people in the end will have shared the exact same experiences and corresponding emotions and that what is timeless and contemporary for one will be timeless and contemporary for many (I’m very tempted to say most)others.

    I’m going to use a concrete example, but before I begin I’d like to say that I would have loved to use a happier example but we are talking about Cante Flamenco. Even as a newbie I can see that endless saetas, siguiriyas, tientos & tangos have suffering and death as their main theme, so we just have to agree to get comfortable talking about death and suffering in this thread.

    (Along the same line, the more I learn the more clearly I can see that in the hands of a good therapist CF would be a powerful therapeutic tool to address many different issues, but that is another discussion.)

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    :Starthrower: I found a saeta whose text is about the tears and the pain of a woman as she watches the suffering and death of her son. When I first played it I primarily wanted to just see an example of the form as performed by a particular cantaor. Maybe the second or third time I watched it I found myself transfixed, watching and listening to someone telling me he knows/has experienced the exact same pain of watching a loved one suffer. Certainly there was an emotional release that came with that experience. More important to me, however, was the first hand experience that someone else is in the exact same boat, along with the other aficionados who were present at that “performance,” etc., etc., Someone doesn’t face the pain alone, millions of people are going through the exact same thing at the exact same time; always have and probably always will. A realization of this universal experience makes it less terrifying and more bearable. It also builds a confidence that one will survive the worst of the experience because they already went through it successfully during that saeta. After such an experience, it’s (almost) impossible to think that such a powerful art form is dead, or isn’t timeless, or won’t always be just as real and contemporary to other people in the future.

    Again, I would have preferred to give an example of an equally profound joyful experience from CF, but that hasn’t happened (yet?). For me Bach’s Et resurrexit, Vivaldi and Baroque music in general are the forms of music that most often move me to experience joy.

    So are we more in agreement than I thought? Do we agree that Cante Flamenco, authentic Cante Flamenco is alive and well? Do we agree that great music is both timeless and contemporary? Do we agree that Cante Flamenco is great music?

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    Default links did not work

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Re/ the Spotify link to the classic Antología. We can thus hear all of this history-making effort, and immerse ourselves in the unique, distinctive toque of Perico el del Lunar viejo's accompaniment. A few corrections need to be noted--many of the palos' singers are misidentified on the Spotify listing of tracks: please note that all toque is by Perico. The correct singers for many of the palos are the first names listed, but many also are wrong. Here are the correct listings for the following:

    La Caña: Rafael Romero; Soleares: Pepe el de la Matrona; Livianas: Pepe; Serranas: Pepe; Cantes de Trilla: Bernardo el de los Lobitos; Nanas: Bernardo; Peteneras: Rafael; Marianas: Bernardo; Alboreas: Rafael; Toñas: Rafael; Martinete: Rafael; Deblas: Rafael.

    The person who added the music from the 2-CD set Antologia del Cante Flamenco was using the information that was printed on the back cover of the CD set. The information on the back cover was incorrect as can be seen in the two close-up images below. I listened to all the songs on Spotify one-by-one and compared them to the songs on the CDs one-by-one: the songs are identical.

    I do not know if the songs are identical to those on the LPs. There were several different releases of the Antologia del Cante Flamenco LPs in different countries. There doesn't appear to be a listing of every single release on the internet: there might be, but I have not found it. Hispavox is now owned by EMI. Before it was purchased by EMI, Hispavox went through a long-period of poor management. During that time, it sold or gave the rights to the 1954 recording to various record companies throughout Europe and South America. There does not appear to be a central list of the names of all these record companies. Little by little I have been gathering the images of the covers of these releases, I have only found three so far and they are all different. I expect this is going to be a long-term project because I might have to wait until a release goes up for sale on one of the several global used-music websites and as of this time I don't even know the addresses of all these sites.

    I imagine StrangeMagic has compared all the songs on Spotify to the LPs in his collection, so hopefully they do match.

    At least in the US releases of the 1954 LPs, there were at least two different booklets/liner notes published. One with the same cover as that in post #86. I am not certain about the other cover picture. The picture posted below is the cover of the booklet that came with my CD set.

    :StrangeMagic: I would appreciate it if you would describe the cover that came with your LP set.





    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Aug-15-2016 at 02:23.

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    :StrangeMagic: In 1982 Hispavox released the 20LP Magna Antologia del Cante Flamenco; then in 1992 a 10CD version. Do you have either of these sets? I went back through the thread and didn't see it, but I might have missed it.

    Image from 1982 20 LP release


    Image from 1992 10 CD release
    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Aug-15-2016 at 02:49.

  10. #99
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default The Anthology

    image.jpg

    Here's the cover of Volume 1 of the Westminster/Hispavox Anthology that I own. All three albums share that same cover art. The records are consecutively numbered WP6052, WP6053 and WP6054. I bought them sometime in the 1950s. The Magna Anthology is known by that name, and is a separate collection, one with which I am not familiar--it may or may not contain material from the original 3LP set, but it is well spoken of in the flamenco aficionado community.

    The contents of the 2CD version of the Anthology appear to exactly match the contents of the original 3 LP set.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Aug-15-2016 at 04:30.

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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default Pies de Plomo

    Around each of the three major centers of flamenco in Andalusia--Cádiz, Jerez, Sevilla--there cluster a group of singers strongly associated. Cádiz boasts Aurelio, Beni, La Perla, Pericón, each "de Cádiz". Jerez offers Terremoto, Manolita, La Paquera de Jerez. And Sevilla, especially the barrio of Triana, is noted for cantaores such as Antonio Mairena and Pies de Plomo (Feet of Lead), Manuel Giorgio Gutiérrez. Pies de Plomo, 1924-2012, was the father of José de la Tomasa, whom we have previously heard and seen here. Pies de Plomo's wife, La Tomasa, was herself the daughter of Pepe Torres, the cantaor brother of Manuel Torres, who is widely held to have been the greatest of gitano cantaores. We see from whence comes the skill of José de la Tomasa.

    Pies de Plomo was a most excellent and authentic cantaor of traditional flamenco, and had a long and productive career, dying at 88. We see here a sequence of clips over a quarter-century of Pies de Plomo's art. The first clip is Siguiriyas. To Pies de Plomo's right sits Bernarda de Utrera, and to the guitarist's left is seated Bernarda's equally-renowned sister Fernanda de Utrera, each a legendary cantaora.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bvfbym9U3mI

    Then, years later, Soleares, with Manolo Franco accompanying.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pVqpU3km1yo

    And finally, Fandangos.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlme3TfAHlk
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Aug-31-2016 at 10:27.

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  13. #101
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default The Sisters: Fernanda and Bernarda de Utrera

    We previously noted the most revered pairing of siblings in cante, the sister/brother team of Pastora and Tomás Pavón. Just behind the Pavóns in recognition of familial excellence in el cante are the sisters Fernanda and Bernarda de Utrera. Fernanda, born Fernanda Jiménez Peña, was the elder. Full gitano like her sister, Fernanda gained reputation as a master of the Soleares, singing often accompanied by Diego del Gastor in Morón de la Frontera but also throughout Andalusia. She was almost invariably in the company of her sister Bernarda Jiménez Peña, who took the Bulerias as her own chosen specialty. The Sisters did not spread their talents widely among the palos of flamenco, but focused almost exclusively on a handful of the most gitano forms--Bulerias, Soleares, Tientos, Siguiriyas, Alegrias, and the occasional Fandangos, the most jondo of the cante andaluz palos. Their approach was highly idiosyncratic, especially singing with Diego del Gastor, but is greatly appreciated by aficionados of cante.

    Here is La Fernanda singing por Soleares with Diego:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKMpAjL9Lrg

    Next we have her Bulerias, again with Diego:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=90bfBqrw0Is

    We previously saw and heard Bernarda and Diego also por Bulerias, the first clip in this whole series. Now we have Bernarda and Diego in Fandangos por Solea:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxqZTT4bnHg
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Oct-04-2016 at 00:46.

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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default Manuel Torre

    Manuel Soto Loreto, known to the flamenco world as Manuel Torre (or Torres), comes down to us today as having been the greatest gitano cantaor in the history of el cante. Born in 1878 to a family of field workers, he inherited his father's height and related nickname "Torre", or Tower. Torre died in 1933. We have a small legacy of recordings of Torre, all only of 3 or 4 minutes' length, some as early as 1909, and experts on Torre say that they utterly fail to transmit any indication of the power of his singing. Torre was at his best only when he so chose to be, in a juerga setting, and was moved to fully express himself--as attested by an vast body of anecdotes describing the powerful effect he had upon his listeners. Paco Sevilla, in his marvelous biography of Carmen Amaya, Queen of the Gypsies--a book which is also an essential history of the flamenco of the first half of the 20th century--devotes 13 pages to Torre and to such tales of his magic. I repeat two of them here: the first the testimony of Joaquin de la Paula:

    "Manuel Torre arrived at ten o'clock. Muribe gave him a hug, and after chastising him for his excesses, made him sit down and drink three or four large glasses of wine . Then he went to him and said, 'Sing for these gentlemen, who say they don't like flamenco and are going to leave.'
    Manuel Torre directed himself to Habichuela, saying, 'Play por Siguiriyas!'
    And he began to sing. And he sang such that, after the second or third verse of Siguiriyas, one of the Galicians became so emotional that he kicked over a table. They picked up the table and Manuel continued singing. Then it was Ignacio Sanchez Mejias who knocked over the table and ripped his shirt to shreds. It appeared that Manuel had electrified everybody there and most of them were crying in the corners. After he had finished, nobody else wanted to sing. And that is when Joaquin el de la Paula gave Manuel Torre the nickname 'Abacereuniones' [He who puts an end to the fiesta]."

    The second reminiscence comes from Diego del Gastor:

    "It was necessary to invite several singers to a juerga with him because, if he came at all, in the middle of it he might walk out and never come back, or he might just sit at the bar and drink all night. But the people at the juerga used to put up with it and waited for him to sing because he was Manuel Torre, and when it happened you never heard anything like it. And maybe then at six in the morning he would suddenly come in with a strange look, his face agitated. He would loosen his shirt collar--that was the signal--dash off his hat and stand there like a mountain in the middle of the room. 'Put it on the fourth' he would say to the guitarist. 'I'm going to sing Siguiriya.' Then he would sing one or two and everybody would cry and go on their knees. You couldn't take it. It was too intense. ¡Era argo bárbaro! (It was barbaric, tremendous!)"

    Herewith some recordings of Torre--his specialties, Siguiriyas and Soleares. Except for one, the guitarist is Miguel Borrull hijo.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ObRwlSpEFM
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ_8fILWHHA
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ma3tX-BqI
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XME11hH_i20
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Oct-05-2016 at 11:16.

  16. #103
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default Technical Aspects of Flamenco

    I know nothing about the technical aspects of music. Never studied it. So here I submit material from the flamenco website of Roberto Lorenz for those who are interested in the formal, technical aspects. Lorenz's first topic concerns harmony:

    Harmony

    Whereas, in most Western music, only the major and minor modes are explicitly named by composers, (except as an occasional oddity in jazz and classical music) flamenco has also preserved the Phrygian mode, commonly called the "Dorian mode" by flamencologists, referring to the Greek Dorian mode, and sometimes also "flamenco mode". The reason for preferring the term "Greek Dorian" is that, as in ancient Greek music, flamenco melodies are descending (instead of ascending as in usual Western melodic patterns). Some flamencologists, like Hipólito Rossy or guitarist Manolo Sanlúcar, also consider this flamenco mode as a survival of the old Greek Dorian mode. I will use the term "Phrygian" to refer to this mode, as it is the most common way of referring to this mode in English speaking countries.

    The Phrygian mode is in fact the most common mode in the traditional palos of flamenco music, and it is used for soleá, most bulerías, siguiriyas, tangos and tientos, and other palos. The flamenco version of this mode contains two frequent alterations in the 7th and, even more often, the 3rd degree of the scale: if the scale is played in E Phrygian for example, G and D can be sharp.

    In the descending E Phrygian scale in flamenco music, G sharp is compulsory for the tonic chord. Based on the Phrygian scale, a typical cadence is formed, usually called “Andalusian cadence”. The chords for this cadence in E Phrygian are Am–G–F–E. According to guitarist Manolo Sanlúcar, in this flamenco Phrygian mode, E is the tonic, F would take the harmonic function of dominant, while Am and G assume the functions of subdominant and mediant respectively.

    When playing in Phrygian mode, guitarists traditionally use only two basic positions for the tonic chord: E and A. However, they often transport [I think Lorenz means transpose] these basic tones by using a cejilla (capo). Modern guitarists, starting with Ramón Montoya, have also introduced other positions. Montoya himself started to use other chords for the tonic in the doric sections of several palos: F sharp for tarantas, B for granaína, A flat for the minera, and he also created a new palo as a solo piece for the guitar, the rondeña, in C sharp. Later guitarists have further extended the repertoire of tonalities and chord positions.

    There are also palos in major mode, for example, most cantiñas and alegrías, guajiras, and some bulerías and tonás, and the cabales (a major mode type of siguiriyas). The minor mode is less frequent and it is restricted to the Farruca, the milongas (among cantes de ida y vuelta), and some styles of tangos, bulerías, etc. In general, traditional palos in major and minor mode are limited harmonically to the typical two-chord (tonic–dominant) or three-chord structure (tonic–subdominant–dominant). However, modern guitarists have increased the traditional harmony by introducing chord substitution, transitional chords, and even modulation.

    Fandangos and the palos derived from it (e.g. malagueñas, tarantas, cartageneras) are bimodal. Guitar introductions are in Phrygian mode, while the singing develops in major mode, modulating to Phrygian mode at the end of the stanza.

    Traditionally, flamenco guitarists did not receive any formal training, so they just relied on their ear to find the chords on the guitar, disregarding the rules of Western classical music. This led them to interesting harmonic findings, with unusual unresolved dissonances. Examples of this are the use of minor 9th chords for the tonic, the tonic chord of tarantas, or the use of the 1st unpressed string as a kind of pedal tone.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Oct-28-2016 at 21:57.

  17. #104
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default Pepe el Culata

    Cantaor Pepe el Culata--"Culata" is the Spanish term for the butt end of a long gun such as a rifle or shotgun--was a gitano born in 1910 in Sevilla. For years he was a performer at Madrid's La Zambra, along with guitarist Perico el del Lunar viejo, Rafael Romero, Pericón de Cádiz, Manuel Vargas, and others. Sometime around the recording of the Westminster/Hispavox anthology in the mid-1950s, Perico & Company also made a fine recording for a tiny Cuban label, Kubaney, and it was on that LP that I first heard Pepe el Culata. I've enjoyed his cante ever since, though he never received quite the recognition of some of his contemporaries, a fact that Donn Pohren noted in his brief entry on Pepe in Lives and Legends of Flamenco.

    Here are some selections, the first has El Culata singing Siguiriyas accompanied by the great Sabicas:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yFdM0bPsrq0

    Next we have Solea, with Perico viejo accompanying:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg6md9zyXbg

    Then we hear a Granaina, with Antonio Pucherete de Linares:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ELg0oFhDKFM

    Last, Fandangos, with an unknown guitarist:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GUi10m98zfI
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Nov-09-2016 at 22:17.

  18. #105
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Default The Compás of Flamenco

    Knowledgeable aficionados of flamenco stress always the importance of understanding the rhythms, the compás, of flamenco. It is essential for performers, whether singers, guitarists, or dancers, to be on the same beat together for an authentic and musically satisfying performance of the classic palos. Here is a very brief but very well-presented demonstration of the best-known rhythms that integrally help define the best-known palos that have compás. Many palos, especially those of flamenco andaluz, such as malagueñas, tarantas, granainas, lack compás entirely.....

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=40jjnE7ZhvI
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Dec-22-2016 at 12:41.

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