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Thread: Please explain to me why I don't like JAZZ

  1. #61
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Go to the white keys of a piano and play some triads (3-note chords). You'll see that CEG and ACE share two notes, C and E, so they can "substitute" for each other.

    I-iv-ii-V, spelled out in C, is CEG-FAC-DFA-GBD. Notice the shared notes.

    This "substitution" idea becomes more apparent when 4-note 'seventh' chords are used: CEGB (C major seventh) can be seen as EGB, an E minor triad, but also the upper notes of C major seventh with no root (C).
    but iv is F minor

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    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Modern jazz uses extended chords to extend harmonic relationships, along with complex rhyhmic signatures that combine to give musicians a lot of musical freedom, but most jazz musicians must actually learn the theory to take advantage of it. I'm inclined to think Mozart and other composers known for improvisation would like modern jazz a lot....

    The jazz progression I've often seen documented is stated ii-V-I or vi-ii-V-I, in ascending fourths. I guess I-vi-ii-V also works since the I and vi share the 1st degree, plus the 5th if they are 7th chords.
    Last edited by philoctetes; Nov-18-2017 at 18:59.

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  4. #63
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    Modern jazz uses extended chords to extend harmonic relationships, along with complex rhyhmic signatures that combine to give musicians a lot of musical freedom, but most jazz musicians must actually learn the theory to take advantage of it. I'm inclined to think Mozart and other composers known for improvisation would like modern jazz a lot....

    The jazz progression I've often seen documented is stated ii-V-I or vi-ii-V-I, in ascending fourths. I guess I-vi-ii-V also works since the I and vi share the 1st degree, plus the 5th if they are 7th chords.
    Modal scales rather than standard chord progressions too, as Miles Davis is famous for. But your comment about "complex rhythmic signatures" is the key one imho, and it's not just the signatures. There's a reason that drummers became increasingly important in progressive jazz in the late 40s and 50s. I've noticed that many posters at talkclassical take for granted the predominance of harmonic elements over rhythmic ones (also over other basic elements such as structure -- scope and scale, counterpoint, etc -- dynamics and timbre) in music, the original poster here perhaps included.
    To me that betrays a primary focus on 19th century western classical music. Nothing wrong with that, but once people here begin to consider genres and eras of music other than 19th century western classical, many seem puzzled, bored or even offended that harmony doesn't occupy quite the same, or in some cases anywhere near the same, exalted position. That's my interpretation of the original post here, apologies in advance if it's off base, but I do think it applies to a lot of the threads and debates here.
    Last edited by fluteman; Nov-18-2017 at 19:53.

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    Senior Member Kjetil Heggelund's Avatar
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    Jazz just isn't loud enough!

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    but iv is F minor
    I meant vi, as the typical I-vi-ii-V7, or one-six-two-five.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    Modern jazz uses extended chords to extend harmonic relationships, along with complex rhyhmic signatures that combine to give musicians a lot of musical freedom, but most jazz musicians must actually learn the theory to take advantage of it. I'm inclined to think Mozart and other composers known for improvisation would like modern jazz a lot....


    I think you're right, philo, they would like it. I remember a philo from AAJ. You dat?

    In jazz, the performer is spotlighted. In classical, the players are expected to simply play as instructed, more or less, so the conductor is really the variable, and the conveyor of "being" in the music. The score, as blueprint, can also convey "being", but this is in the hands of the conductor.

    However, chamber music is most similar to jazz; in it, the players are the performers as well.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Nov-20-2017 at 19:41.

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  8. #66
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    "You dat?"

    No I be one o dem ol Amazon "friends"...

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    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    piano.png

    Mine's a Kawai.
    Last edited by Luchesi; Nov-23-2017 at 20:10.

  10. #68
    Senior Member norman bates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    Modal scales rather than standard chord progressions too, as Miles Davis is famous for. But your comment about "complex rhythmic signatures" is the key one imho, and it's not just the signatures. There's a reason that drummers became increasingly important in progressive jazz in the late 40s and 50s. I've noticed that many posters at talkclassical take for granted the predominance of harmonic elements over rhythmic ones (also over other basic elements such as structure -- scope and scale, counterpoint, etc -- dynamics and timbre) in music, the original poster here perhaps included.
    To me that betrays a primary focus on 19th century western classical music. Nothing wrong with that, but once people here begin to consider genres and eras of music other than 19th century western classical, many seem puzzled, bored or even offended that harmony doesn't occupy quite the same, or in some cases anywhere near the same, exalted position. That's my interpretation of the original post here, apologies in advance if it's off base, but I do think it applies to a lot of the threads and debates here.

    but in jazz, especially as you said from the late forties (and sometimes before) become often harmonically a very complex form of music. Art Tatum, Lennie Tristano, Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn, Thelonious Monk, Bill Evans, Gil Melle, Andrew Hill, Herbie Nichols Wayne Shorter, Booker Little, Joe Diorio, Ted Greene, Coltrane, Dennis Sandole, Clare Fischer, Lyle "Spud" Murphy, Allan Holdsworth. George Russell etc (and I could go on forever with this name-dropping). I even had a discussion recently here with a guy who thought that all jazz is always too much harmonically complex and it uses always extended harmonies...
    Last edited by norman bates; Nov-24-2017 at 22:23.
    What time is the next swan?

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    Well, it sounds sexy in a classy way as opposed to sounding sexy in a trashy way.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Please explain to me why I don't like JAZZ


    Uhh, because it is a music which was created by African Americans in New Orleans?

    Hey, at least they didn't wear powdered wigs, silk pants, and play harpsichords!
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jan-09-2018 at 21:30.

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    Haha true! Amen to that

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Okay, now please explain to me why I LIKE jazz.

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    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Okay, now please explain to me why I LIKE jazz.
    Because you are an intelligent person with impeccable taste.
    No sound ever comes from the Gates of Eden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Please explain to me why I don't like JAZZ


    Hey, at least they didn't wear powdered wigs, silk pants, and play harpsichords!
    I dunno.... I saw Miles Davis in the late 80s

  17. #75
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Miller View Post
    I dunno.... I saw Miles Davis in the late 80s
    Ha Haaa! That's funny.

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