View Poll Results: Is Musical Influence One Indication Of Greatness?

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  • Yes, it can be one indicator of greatness

    9 29.03%
  • It depends and cannot be generalized

    13 41.94%
  • No, not at all

    2 6.45%
  • Unsure

    0 0%
  • Don't know enough to decide

    1 3.23%
  • Who cares

    6 19.35%
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Thread: Is Musical Influence One Indication Of Greatness?

  1. #1
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    Default Is Musical Influence One Indication Of Greatness?

    Best with an example.

    Mozart's epic Clarinet Quintet K.581 originally composed for the basset horn was arguably the first Romantic chamber music of significance in history. Composed by the genius for his friend, it later had much influence on many Romantic composers who attempted similar/identical compositions for their clarinet at the time and so other chamber combinations.

    I am sure you can easily think of other examples who influenced other composers.

    So it seems reasonable to suggest that consistent influence by a piece of music by a composer may therefore indicate greatness. In my example above, Mozart was a genius who influenced all those who studied and or listened to his music. The piano concerto was another example, where Beethoven took it up and it all became history after that.

    Your thoughts?

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    Moderator Nereffid's Avatar
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    It's clear to me from my time on this forum that "greatness" is whatever people need it to be in order to include their favourite composers.

    If you want your definition of "greatness" to include "had a lot of influence", or "had a hot wife", or whatever, then go with God, I won't stop you.

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    Stockhausen's been pretty influential, Art. How do you feel about that?

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    -nuked to oblivion-
    Last edited by SeptimalTritone; Feb-12-2016 at 10:54.

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonNZ View Post
    Stockhausen's been pretty influential, Art. How do you feel about that?
    Stockhausen wasn't able to write great tuneful melodies so he wasn't really that influential in proper classical music that is appreciated in the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogen View Post
    Stockhausen wasn't able to write great tuneful melodies
    Yes he was. You should listen again to Momente.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonNZ View Post
    Stockhausen's been pretty influential, Art. How do you feel about that?
    Yes, Stockhausen is influential to many experimental music composers to this very day.

    Although my knowledge of composed-experimental music history of the 50s and 60s is relatively weaker compared with my knowledge of the High Baroque and Classical 18th century, I would measure the historical influence of key eighteen century composers as much more influential than Stockhausen's.

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    Senior Member norman bates's Avatar
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    Miley Cyrus has been very influential. When she has started twerking, a lot of other popstars has followed her. Is shaking *** a sign of greatness?



    Yes, it can be one indicator of greatness


    It depends and cannot be generalized


    No, not at all


    Unsure


    Don't know enough to decide

    What time is the next swan?

  14. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtMusic View Post
    Yes, Stockhausen is influential to many experimental music composers to this very day.

    Although my knowledge of composed-experimental music history of the 50s and 60s is relatively weaker compared with my knowledge of the High Baroque and Classical 18th century, I would measure the historical influence of key eighteen century composers as much more influential than Stockhausen's.
    But do you see his influence as "one indication of his Greatness", as your poll asks, and as you have answered in the affirmative?

    An influence which has, by the by, been felt across many genres in and outside classical, right through to pop.

    ...or would you prefer the thread question be answered more narrowly as "was Mozart's influence one indication of Mozart's greatness?"
    Last edited by SimonNZ; Feb-12-2016 at 11:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtMusic View Post
    Yes, Stockhausen is influential to many experimental music composers to this very day.

    Although my knowledge of composed-experimental music history of the 50s and 60s is relatively weaker compared with my knowledge of the High Baroque and Classical 18th century, I would measure the historical influence of key eighteen century composers as much more influential than Stockhausen's.
    ... possibly something to do with the 18th century having been part of history for quite a bit longer than the 1950s?

    Last edited by Nereffid; Feb-12-2016 at 12:00.

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    Well, Ives did a lot of things "first" that were taken up by a great many succeeding composers -- but because his music remained unpublished/unplayed for years, his actual "influence" was pretty minimal. What does that make him?

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    I agree with Nereffid - 'greatness' is one of those generic 'Humpty-Dumpty' words.
    '...a violator of his word, a libertine over head and ears in debt and disgrace, a despiser of domestic ties, the companion of gamblers and demireps, a man who has just closed half a century without a single claim on the gratitude of his country or the respect of posterity...' - Leigh Hunt on the Prince Regent (later George IV).

    ὃν οἱ θεοὶ φιλοῦσιν ἀποθνῄσκει νέος [Those whom the gods love die young] - Menander

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    Senior Member Adam Weber's Avatar
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    How many times do we need to talk about this?

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  20. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Weber View Post
    How many times do we need to talk about this?
    Are you saying you don't like Chinese water torture? We need to talk about it until we all See Sense. Only then might it stop.

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    It may be useful to approach the question by looking at the various two-composer friendships or mentor-acolyte relationships, to see what can be learned from them. We know that Tchaikovsky was revered by Rachmaninoff; a similar relationship obtained between Brahms as mentor and Dvoràk as disciple; maybe also Mendelssohn/Schumann. We have the Prokofiev/Miaskovsky friendship, Rachmaninoff/Medtner, the complex Liszt/Wagner, the also complex Debussy/Ravel quasi-rivalry.

    We also might look at the larger associations: the circle around Franck, the circle around Balakirev, the circle--constantly in flux-- around Diaghilev, Les Six, Rimsky-Korsakov and his students; many more. If we look at Bakakirev for instance, we see a composer of perhaps middling stature but who, by dint of a strong--if not to say overpowering--personality, nurtured and fostered the musical education and evolution of three composers greater than himself, two of whom--Rimsky and Mussorgsky--themselves influenced a further wave of composers.

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