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Karajan's politics and Mahler's religion

26K views 102 replies 34 participants last post by  bz3 
#1 ·
Everyone knows that Gustav Mahler converted to Catholicism to get the Vienna Court Opera position, and I've heard the claim that Karajan wasn't really a committed Nazi, but joined the party to further his career. So how Catholic was Mahler, and how Nazi was Karajan, in your opinion? Do we view them as hypocrites or pragmatists? Were both more committed to the music that to anything else?
 
#58 · (Edited)
I think Mahler was more naive than Karajan. Mahler did not identify with the orthodox jews he saw around him, and was cosmopolitan in his religion. He naively did not realize that advancing his career in Vienna would prove to be impossible because of his heritage; so he was forced out, and went to New York. New York was a good place to be in America, especially later after WWII. Bruno Walter and others soon started advancing a Jewish music agenda, with Mahler as the symbol.

Karajan, having conducted for the Third Reich, was caught in the crossfire. If he joined the Nazi party to advance his career, it soon became a liability, which he bore right up to his last years.

Even Bruno Walter was more pro-jewish than Mahler, because Walter was not in denial about his Jewishness like Mahler was, and it was post WWII and the holocaust had caused a big backlash. It was now safe.

There may have been parts of Mahler's "cosmopolitan" philosophy that Bruno Walter did not like, since it was part of the way Mahler denied his true heritage to become more sophisticated and modern. As I understand, Walter never conducted Mahler's Second, the"resurrection" symphony.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Three years on, would this thread change radically if we discussed Karajan's religion and Mahler's politics? Just a thought!
 
#63 · (Edited)
Political issues aside, I’ve been looking for information on how HvK first discovered or heard Mahler in the first place. Where did the first to hear him? What was his reaction? How did he feel about the composer being banned under the Nazis? I have come across nothing on this and I feel it’s an important question because the conductor obviously did come across him and eventually started to perform him, which I believe is very much to his credit... It’s almost like a complete reversal of what one might have expected of him considering the anti-Semitic political situation he grew up with in Germany as a young man. If anyone has information on this, please share, and I’m surprised that no one has asked this before, unless I’ve missed it... Of course, with Gustav Mahler growing in popularity, it might have looked conspicuous if he hadn’t conducted him after the War, like he was somehow prejudiced against him. But ultimately, I don’t think he was. But perhaps he still ended up doing some soul-searching after the war with regard to the Jewish composer after not being able to perform him during the Nazi era... I also believe HvK was highly influenced by the recordings and performances of Mengelberg, who was known for his use of portamentos in his Mahler performances. In fact, perhaps that’s where HvK first heard Mahler. Among the modern conductors, Herbert von Karajan used the portamentos himself more than anyone, with sensitivity, beauty and skillful, in my opinion, in his recording of the Mahler 4th. I was profoundly surprised and impressed... With regard to religion, I’ve never considered Mahler as conventionally religious. I think he could be better described as a mystic, one who was highly metaphysically inclined, which included his study of Theosophy, which is hardly a part of any standard religion. And yet people try to interpret him falsely along the lines of conventional religion, perhaps because they just have not read enough about him and there’s always the tendency for one to superimpose one’s own religious views on him. In any event, I believe von Karajan’s views on Mahler would reveal a great deal about him as a man and a conductor.
 
#72 · (Edited)
Political issues aside, I've been looking for information on how HvK first discovered or heard Mahler in the first place. Where did the first to hear him? What was his reaction? How did he feel about the composer being banned under the Nazis? I have come across nothing on this and I feel it's an important question because the conductor obviously did come across him and eventually started to perform him, which I believe is very much to his credit... It's almost like a complete reversal of what one might have expected of him considering the anti-Semitic political situation he grew up with in Germany as a young man. If anyone has information on this, please share, and I'm surprised that no one has asked this before, unless I've missed it... Of course, with Gustav Mahler growing in popularity, it might have looked conspicuous if he hadn't conducted him after the War, like he was somehow prejudiced against him. But ultimately, I don't think he was. But perhaps he still ended up doing some soul-searching after the war with regard to the Jewish composer after not being able to perform him during the Nazi era... I also believe HvK was highly influenced by the recordings and performances of Mengelberg, who was known for his use of portamentos in his Mahler performances. In fact, perhaps that's where HvK first heard Mahler. Among the modern conductors, Herbert von Karajan used the portamentos himself more than anyone, with sensitivity, beauty and skillful, in my opinion, in his recording of the Mahler 4th. I was profoundly surprised and impressed... With regard to religion, I've never considered Mahler as conventionally religious. I think he could be better described as a mystic, one who was highly metaphysically inclined, which included his study of Theosophy, which is hardly a part of any standard religion. And yet people try to interpret him falsely along the lines of conventional religion, perhaps because they just have not read enough about him and there's always the tendency for one to superimpose one's own religious views on him. In any event, I believe von Karajan's views on Mahler would reveal a great deal about him as a man and a conductor.
As far as Karajan's exposure to Mahler's music is concerned here's a quote from an interview he gave in the 80s before a live performance of Mahler's 5th,
"Yes, you see I was brought up with Mahler's music when I was studying in Vienna. Then in the late 1950s there was a great explosion. But in the interpretation of Mahler you have to be so very careful. If you go too far it can become nearly kitsch. The frontier is very narrow. I heard in Vienna all these Mahler festivals - unknown symphonies on two rehearsals! We prepared the Fifth, recorded it as a trial, worked on it again, then recorded it properly 60 hours before we first gave it to the public!"

Although he was familiar with Mahler's music he was from the old German school of conducting where Bruckner was much more popular. Although I can't find the quote now, I do remember him talking about listening to, attending concerts in Vienna, by Bruno Walter and talking to the maestro about Mahler the man and his music He was a firm admirer of Walter and Walter was similarly impressed by Karajan, recommending him, amongst others, for the NYPO conductor's job (" A must in view of his exceptional talent..."). Unlike Klieber, who didn't like Mahler's music much, Karajan grew to like it but I always got the feeling he found it hard to interpret and was very nervous about getting it right (there are several quotes attesting to this) . He never seemed to be as reticent with other composers as he did to performing some Mahler. One thing that has always surprised me is that he never recorded Mahler's 1st. I think he would have made an great job of that symphony..forr me it's right up Karajan's street. I read an interview with Abbado a while back and he mentioned his former mentor, Karajan, sitting in on some of the Mahler 1 rehearsal sessions prior to Abbado's live recording of the 1st with the BPO. I definitely think Walter was the catalyst to Karajan's Mahler later on in his career. There are several quotes from Karajan about Walter and the high regard he held the conductor. The reference to the late 50s and Mahler festivals in Vienna were in preparation for the 100th anniversary of Mahler's birth. Walter performed in these with Karajan and in New York with other conductors.
 
#71 ·
Those interested in learning more about the increasing variety of views within both European and especially American Judaism over the last roughly 250 years--with special emphasis on the 19th and early 20th century--will gain much from Steven Weisman's book The Chosen Wars. Visitors to The Groups will find my brief review of this fascinating history downstairs under Books, History, and Religion headings--I liked this book so much!

https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/book-chat-d1680-the-chosen-wars.html
 
#86 ·
Shostakovich, Khachaturian and numerous other musicians in the Soviet Union where members of the communist party. The same party responsible for millions and millions of murders, executions and even deliberate famines killing millions in Ukraine. For some reason this is never seen as problematic as being a nazi.
 
#87 · (Edited)
The story of a charismatic dictator arising from the heart of European civilization and using diabolical methods to cleanse the world of the "chosen people" and conquer Europe for his "master race" is easier to grasp than the more various and diffuse atrocities committed over several decades by the Soviets. Crudely put, it makes a better movie. Moreover, there was far more sympathy in the West for the "Communist experiment," and Russia was our ally against Hitler in WW II. A "communist" is much less easy to define than a "Nazi." Add to that the historical and continuing problem of antisemitism, and the disparity you point out is easy to understand, even if it's unfair in any given instance.
 
#96 ·
The most effective time to fight against authoritarianism and dictatorship is as one senses them attempting to gain a foothold within one's society. Things become far more perilous once the thugs become well-entrenched within the body politic.
Which in the case of the United States occurred in 1913.

As far as the OP, Karajan doesn't strike me as particularly political and Mahler seems more spiritual than religious.
 
#94 ·
I don't believe that Karajan was a Nazi, despite this NP membership history, for the reasons I mentioned somewhere else (aristocracy VS Nazi pigs)

I'm very sorry, but I can't say the same for Carl...

The fact that Herbie is something like a God in Germany and Carl is nowhere near him, is the best proof for the truth behind these (miserable) stories. The instinct of the people knows better than many books and conspiracy theories.
 
#97 ·
This and a hundred others!:lol:
 
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