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Thread: Karajan's politics and Mahler's religion

  1. #91
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oortone View Post
    I believe the "difference" you describe here is to a very great extent the result of what we in the West where taught in school.
    Let me turn that around and assert that what we were taught in school is the result of the differences I described. I should add that communist Russia had plenty of fans in the West who were willingly oblivious to the atrocities taking place there.

    However, personally, I find it very hard to judge musicians living under these regimes for what they did or did not do. If we go back further, to the 19th century and earlier more or less all regimes where authoritative so more or less all musicians before the 20th century should be blamed the same way as Karajan et al.
    Where all regimes are authoritarian, one has little choice but to adapt to them. The question of blame can hardly arise when there's no place else to go except the dungeon.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    The most effective time to fight against authoritarianism and dictatorship is as one senses them attempting to gain a foothold within one's society. Things become far more perilous once the thugs become well-entrenched within the body politic.

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  4. #93
    Sr. Moderator TurnaboutVox's Avatar
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    As I believe someone mentioned upthread, "Maybe we should get back to discussing Karajan's politics and Mahler's religion."

    Indeed.

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  6. #94
    Senior Member Dimace's Avatar
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    I don't believe that Karajan was a Nazi, despite this NP membership history, for the reasons I mentioned somewhere else (aristocracy VS Nazi pigs)

    I'm very sorry, but I can't say the same for Carl...

    The fact that Herbie is something like a God in Germany and Carl is nowhere near him, is the best proof for the truth behind these (miserable) stories. The instinct of the people knows better than many books and conspiracy theories.
    „Es gibt drei Arten von Pianisten: jüdische Pianisten, homosexuelle Pianisten -- und schlechte Pianisten.“ V. Horowitz

  7. #95
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Has it occurred to anyone else that the title of this thread is very strange?
    Last edited by Woodduck; Dec-22-2019 at 22:47.

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  9. #96
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    The most effective time to fight against authoritarianism and dictatorship is as one senses them attempting to gain a foothold within one's society. Things become far more perilous once the thugs become well-entrenched within the body politic.
    Which in the case of the United States occurred in 1913.

    As far as the OP, Karajan doesn't strike me as particularly political and Mahler seems more spiritual than religious.

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  11. #97
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Has it occurred to anyone else that the title of this thread is very strange?
    This and a hundred others!
    Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate!

  12. #98
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Which in the case of the United States occurred in 1913.
    Classic example of the cryptic one-liner that might mean something, but only the poster knows for sure. Wilson/Roosevelt/Taft? Thugs? Take it on down to a Political Group and make a case. Otherwise......

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  14. #99
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Classic example of the cryptic one-liner that might mean something, but only the poster knows for sure. Wilson/Roosevelt/Taft? Thugs? Take it on down to a Political Group and make a case. Otherwise......
    It was in fact on this very day in 1913.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

    Just clarifying my point. Perhaps take a moment to ponder the gravity of this event, realize it is a private institution owned by European families. It is not of the people it is not for the people or designed to help our nation in any way. It is a mechanism for total control. These people create money out of nothing and charge us and our government interest for it. They control the boom and bust cycles of the economy by controlling interest rates. They print enough money for loans, but not for the interest owed, so there is never enough money in circulation to pay off all the debt.

    The last president that wanted to change this system ended up with a bullet in his head. Can it get anymore "thug" than that?

    Ask yourself why is this issue not discussed much on TV or in mainstream politics? Why did you not know exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned that date?

    Just some thoughts to ponder. But yes any further discussion can be taken downstairs.
    Last edited by tdc; Dec-24-2019 at 00:44.

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  16. #100
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    ^^^^I want to make a point that I have "No Comment" on your thesis (but I may be part of the Plan).

  17. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    ^^^^I want to make a point that I have "No Comment" on your thesis (but I may be part of the Plan).
    Your mind seems sufficiently closed, citizen.

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  19. #102
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bz3 View Post
    Your mind seems sufficiently closed, citizen.
    One cryptic one-liner follows another. I could guess that you subscribe to tdc's thesis, but who really knows what you mean to say?
    Getting some people to actually assert something is often like pulling teeth. But there's always The Groups.

  20. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    One cryptic one-liner follows another. I could guess that you subscribe to tdc's thesis, but who really knows what you mean to say?
    Getting some people to actually assert something is often like pulling teeth. But there's always The Groups.
    tdc explained himself, you're the one that responded with only a cryptic one-liner that seemingly implies tdc's opinion is too spooky and conspiratorial for you to deign to address. I suppose over half the American founding fathers as well as many Presidents (among many others) believed in 'the Plan' too.

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