An Interesting and Useful Treatise on Twentieth Century Music

**Strange Magic** · Apr-27-2016, 19:57

In a thread, "Russian Composers and Music", TC member JosefinaHW mentioned a recent (2014) doctoral thesis by one Herbert Pauls. It is titled Two Centuries in One: Musical Romanticism and the Twentieth Century and is available here:
http://www.musicweb-international.co...ies_in_one.pdf

It is a long (400 pages plus), thorough, but well-written and easily absorbed treatise that both JosefinaHW and I can recommend as very valuable background information for any discussion of the topics of "modernism", "tonal" v. "atonal", "Romanticism", "Neo-Romanticism" etc. that have so troubled the Forum recently. Pauls' argument in a nutshell, which he supports with some very interesting lists and tables, is that musical Romanticism/Neo-Romanticism overwhelmingly dominates the Twentieth Century, for which thesis he offers many arguments and much data. A corollary of this is that it would be very difficult to realize this if one relied primarily (until recently) on the major music history texts, which offer a significantly different view of the past hundred years. Pauls' Table 2 on pp. 51-52 is particularly enlightening. Of course, the thesis has nothing to do with whether any particular person should or should not like or listen to any particular kind or piece of music. It really is all a matter of taste.

It would be useful to have the comments of those who commit themselves to reading the work, and there is certainly no time pressure to do so.

**Manxfeeder** · Apr-27-2016, 20:11

I have it downloaded. I don't know if I'll ever have time to read it, but it has an interesting premise.

**Chordalrock** · Apr-27-2016, 20:14

musical Romanticism/Neo-Romanticism overwhelmingly dominates the Twentieth Century

Just makes more far-out music all the more precious...

**isorhythm** · Apr-27-2016, 20:15

I'll look more closely later, but if this man is going to tell me to listen to Medtner, I'm out.

**Truckload** · Apr-27-2016, 20:18

Originally Posted by Strange Magic

In a thread, "Russian Composers and Music", TC member JosefinaHW mentioned a recent (2014) doctoral thesis by one Herbert Pauls. It is titled Two Centuries in One: Musical Romanticism and the Twentieth Century and is available here:
http://www.musicweb-international.co...ies_in_one.pdf

It would be useful to have the comments of those who commit themselves to reading the work, and there is certainly no time pressure to do so.

Thank you so much for sharing. I plan to read this tonight. I can't wait to read what he has to say about Howard Hanson and Hindemith.

**Chronochromie** · Apr-27-2016, 20:18

That recent thing around here that says that

Originally Posted by Strange Magic

musical Romanticism/Neo-Romanticism overwhelmingly dominates the Twentieth Century,.

seems more like wishful thinking than what actually happened, but I'll give this guy a chance. I'll get back to you whenever I've read it.

**Truckload** · Apr-27-2016, 20:32

Originally Posted by isorhythm

I'll look more closely later, but if this man is going to tell me to listen to Medtner, I'm out.

Do we know who Medtner is? I don't think we do. We might have to look him up on YouTube or Groves. Is this Nicolas Medtner who famously played the piano at the age of six? Hmmm, perhaps it is this guy?

Nicolai Medtner
Russ. composer and pianist. Studied Moscow Cons. (pf. with Safonov, comp. with Arensky and Taneyev). Prof. at Moscow Cons. 1902 – 03 , 1909 – 10 and 1914 – 21 . Left Russ. 1921 , living in Ger. and France and touring as virtuoso pianist. Amer. début 1924 with Philadelphia Orch. Wrote much pf. mus.; was influenced by Ger. romanticism. Wrote book, 1935 , opposing modern innovations and affirming faith in tonality. Wrote 3 pf. concs. ( 1914 – 18 , 1920 – 7 , 1940 – 3 ); 9 pf. sonatas ( 1896 – 1935 ); many genre pieces for pf., e.g. series called 34 Fairy‐Tales ( 1905 – 29 ); and many songs. Settled in Eng. 1935 . Patronized by Maharajah of Mysore.

I had never heard of him. But now, because we have posted about him, he will live forever in the annals of Talk Classical. Here is link to his Concerto No. 1.

**Headphone Hermit** · Apr-27-2016, 20:57

Originally Posted by Truckload

Do we know who Medtner is? I don't think we do.

I had never heard of him.

But some of us do know about him

some of us even enjoy his music

... and I am thankful to Nikolai Demidenko for playing a Medtner piece as an encore at a concert a few years back because that is how I was first introduced to his music. I remember clearly that Demidenko said that Medtner was a genius. I was intrigued because I didn't know his music, but from that one piece (one of the skazki) I then went on to explore his other music - some lovely piano solo pieces, enjoyable piano concertos and some wonderful songs. Of course, there are some (many, even) who don't care for his music, and I wouldn't say anyone should enjoy his music, but it is only fair to give it a listen before dismissing it

**Truckload** · Apr-27-2016, 21:12

Originally Posted by Headphone Hermit

But some of us do know about him

some of us even enjoy his music

... and I am thankful to Nikolai Demidenko for playing a Medtner piece as an encore at a concert a few years back because that is how I was first introduced to his music. I remember clearly that Demidenko said that Medtner was a genius. I was intrigued because I didn't know his music, but from that one piece (one of the skazki) I then went on to explore his other music - some lovely piano solo pieces, enjoyable piano concertos and some wonderful songs. Of course, there are some (many, even) who don't care for his music, and I wouldn't say anyone should enjoy his music, but it is only fair to give it a listen before dismissing it

I was listening to his Concerto No. 1 just now. Very emotional, very moving. It didn't quite rise to the "knock my socks off" level of the Beethoven P.C. #5 or the Rach. P.C.#2, but really quite attractive. I don't know why someone would hate Medtner. And I'm glad Isorythm mentioned him. I always love it when I find someone that is "new to me".

**Strange Magic** · Apr-27-2016, 21:22

We have Becca, and then the persistence of JosefinaHW, to thank for this publication. Becca mentioned some links in a thread on Boulez, and JosefinaHW patiently worked through the links and came up with Herbert Pauls' dissertation. Blame them.

**Becca** · Apr-27-2016, 21:28

No good deed goes unpunished

**isorhythm** · Apr-27-2016, 21:29

I'm happy some are enjoying Medtner's music! I have tried.

**Nereffid** · Apr-28-2016, 07:21

Originally Posted by Strange Magic

We have Becca, and then the persistence of JosefinaHW, to thank for this publication. Becca mentioned some links in a thread on Boulez, and JosefinaHW patiently worked through the links and came up with Herbert Pauls' dissertation. Blame them.

to all involved in bringing this to our attention!

I'm making my way through it and find it fascinating reading. Of course as I read I can already hear TC's voices of disapproval - but to me it's a perspective that clarifies a lot of thoughts I've had on the subject.

**SimonNZ** · Apr-28-2016, 07:30

Originally Posted by Nereffid

to all involved in bringing this to our attention!

I'm making my way through it and find it fascinating reading. Of course as I read I can already hear TC's voices of disapproval - but to me it's a perspective that clarifies a lot of thoughts I've had on the subject.

Could you give a longer precis of his argument than the OP?

edit: actually don't bother - ten pages in and I can already see what I'm in for. Unfortunately.

**KenOC** · Apr-28-2016, 07:42

Originally Posted by Strange Magic

In a thread, "Russian Composers and Music", TC member JosefinaHW mentioned a recent (2014) doctoral thesis by one Herbert Pauls. It is titled Two Centuries in One: Musical Romanticism and the Twentieth Century and is available here:
http://www.musicweb-international.co...ies_in_one.pdf

I have just downloaded this and read a few pages. Fascinating indeed! I will be reading the whole thing and hope not to forget this thread so I can add a comment or two.

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