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Thread: What is so great about the 20th century's music?

  1. #781
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Myself alone? No. But what authority determines what is "just"? What authority determines what is a "human right"?
    Those are determined by a justice system. Beauty is not. Try again.

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    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    Those are determined by a justice system. Beauty is not. Try again.
    They're equally metaphysical, unprovable concepts. Try again. And answer the question.

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    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    By the way, postmodernism:
    A general and wide-ranging term which is applied to literature, art, philosophy, architecture, fiction, and cultural and literary criticism, among others. Postmodernism is largely a reaction to the assumed certainty of scientific, or objective, efforts to explain reality. In essence, it stems from a recognition that reality is not simply mirrored in human understanding of it, but rather, is constructed as the mind tries to understand its own particular and personal reality. For this reason, postmodernism is highly skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person. In the postmodern understanding, interpretation is everything; reality only comes into being through our interpretations of what the world means to us individually. Postmodernism relies on concrete experience over abstract principles, knowing always that the outcome of one's own experience will necessarily be fallible and relative, rather than certain and universal.
    https://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/g...ostm-body.html

    A refutation of postmodernism:
    The end result of four decades of postmodernism permeating the art world is that there is very little interesting or important work being done right now in the fine arts. Irony was a bold and creative posture when Duchamp did it, but it is now an utterly banal, exhausted, and tedious strategy. Young artists have been taught to be “cool” and “hip” and thus painfully self-conscious. They are not encouraged to be enthusiastic, emotional, and visionary. They have been cut off from artistic tradition by the crippled skepticism about history that they have been taught by ignorant and solipsistic postmodernists. In short, the art world will never revive until postmodernism fades away. Postmodernism is a plague upon the mind and the heart.
    https://faustomag.com/camille-paglia-postmodernism-is-a-plague-upon-the-mind-and-the-heart/
    Last edited by consuono; Sep-28-2020 at 23:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Dr. Paglia is an authentic, independently-minded academic who is going to speak her own mind, no matter what. There aren't too many of these brave individuals about today as most have succumbed to the bullying of group-think. She speaks from a position of authority and with real intellectual heft and she will call out the arid ideologies behind post-modernism and its concatenations.

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    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    I know what post-modernism is; you act as though by flinging that term you are making a devastating attack. I couldn't care less care how you label my views, at least I can explain them. You on the other hand, repeat platitudes and say nothing:

    ...
    No, *this* is a platitude:
    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    Only to the degree that it holds my interest enough to continue listening. I do not make any judgments whether a composer or work is good or bad relative to other composers or works. I also have no interest in whether a work is considered "great" or "bad" according to any authority.
    Last edited by consuono; Sep-29-2020 at 00:06.

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    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    No, *this* is a platitude:
    That is merely my view, you can take it or leave it, matters not to me.

    Now, when will you provide your view as to the objective criteria for assessing beauty and by what authority.
    Last edited by SanAntone; Sep-29-2020 at 00:18.

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    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    They're equally metaphysical, unprovable concepts. Try again. And answer the question.
    Justice is arrived at in courts of law; violations are proved because there are codes of law making plain what they are and how they are violated. Human rights are outlined in most government's basic laws, e.g. in the US the Bill of Rights and the other amendments to our constitution. These are clearly articulated and violations of a person's rights can be demonstrated and proved.

    A legal system is not metaphysical. I know of no court of beauty, no laws of beauty for which it can be demonstrated and proven they have been violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Why do you go on about post-modernism. It has nothing to do with your inability to cite objective criteria that provides the basis for assessing beauty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    Dr. Paglia is an authentic, independently-minded academic who is going to speak her own mind, no matter what. There aren't too many of these brave individuals about today as most have succumbed to the bullying of group-think. She speaks from a position of authority and with real intellectual heft and she will call out the arid ideologies behind post-modernism and its concatenations.
    I want you to tell me your view about assessing beauty. You were the one who brought it up as a standard to judge art.
    Last edited by SanAntone; Sep-29-2020 at 00:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Look it up. You might as well know the origins of what you advocate.
    Whereas you can toss around insinuations at will? Suck it up, buttercup.
    I'm no postmodernist in most of my artistic choices, nor in my philosophy, but to express the utterly controversial claim there are objective standards of judging music in such a self-assured and rude way is unbecoming.

    You've been skim-reading too much Roger Scruton without critically analysing it.

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    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    A legal system is not metaphysical.
    It is based on the metaphysical ideal of "justice" which can not be scientifically proven.
    Why do you go on about post-modernism.
    Why do you object to it?

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Most contemporary music is not postmodern as in fragmented and detached, that requires interpretation to connect the dots. Again I was guilty of associating the 2 together myself in my old posts, because I couldn't connect the dots and didn't believe the composer did either. It also doesn't help that some advocates of postmodernism and Contemporary music fans suggest that it is music of isolated sounds and colours to be experienced "in the moment", that there is no narrative or unity.

    Here is what is generally considered the clearest example of postmodern music. The people talking are intended to be independent from the music and other speakers. There is no unity in flow nor counterpoint in many parts (like in say 14:30 to 15:15), there is a washed out effect.



    While here the individual players are locked in with each other. There is a lot of interaction and consideration of the unity as a whole. From 2:45 to 6:45 is probably my favourite part. There is no room for interpretation. The composer realized the music fully, as much as say, Shostakovich.

    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-29-2020 at 02:04.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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  13. #791
    Senior Member Gallus's Avatar
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    "Thread: What is so great about the 20th century's music?"

    How about its extreme variety? Everything from the lush romanticism of Rachmaninoff to the electronic soundscapes of Xenakis, the neoclassicism of Stravinsky, the minimalism of Glass, Bartok balancing on the edge of tonality and everything in between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Most contemporary music is not postmodern as in fragmented and detached, that requires interpretation to connect the dots.
    Not sure why this is your criterion. Minimalism is paradigmatic postmodern music, and it's certainly not fragmented and detached.

    A big part of postmodernism, as opposed to modernism, is a return to 'home' and 'authenticity' after the interruption, abstractness and artificiality of modernism: think farmers markets, repetitive melodic waves of music, and also mixing high and low culture (reversing the alienating elitism of modernism).

    I agree that postmodernism is quite contradictory, though, it's philosophy (of history/science) is very much about fragmentation, interruption, and relativism - and no doubt this is reflected in much contemporary 'music'.
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Sep-29-2020 at 01:51.

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    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    It is based on the metaphysical ideal of "justice" which can not be scientifically proven.

    Why do you object to it?
    I don't object to it [post-modernism], if you want to think of me as a post-modernist I don't care.

    Now back to the subject: you have still not shown me any objective criteria for judging art. You first said, "beauty." I then asked you to show me the objective criteria for assessing beauty. That question you keep avoiding.

    Because .... there is no objective criteria to assess beauty.

    But, wait, you have indicated an answer by comparing beauty to the "metaphysical ideal of "justice" which can not be scientifically proven." So, I must assume you think that beauty also cannot be scientifically proven.

    Which puts us right back in the subjective tent of appreciating art or music.

    This will end my dialog, such as it is, with you.
    Last edited by SanAntone; Sep-29-2020 at 02:00.

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Not sure why this is your criterion. Minimalism is paradigmatic postmodern music, and it's certainly not fragmented and detached.

    A big part of postmodernism, as opposed to modernism, is a return to 'home' and 'authenticity' after the interruption, abstractness and artificiality of modernism: think farmers markets, repetitive melodic waves of music, and also mixing high and low culture (reversing the alienating elitism of modernism).

    I agree that postmodernism is quite contradictory, though, it's philosophy (of history/science) is very much about fragmentation, interruption, and relativism - and no doubt this is reflected in much contemporary 'music'.
    The fragmentation is not my criterion, but what I read from others. Deconstruction is also a criteria which is in Minimalism. Fragmentation could also be in the way that it's small fragments being repeated.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Now back to the subject: you have still not shown me any objective criteria for judging art. You first said, "beauty."
    As I said, show me objective criteria for judging "justice".

    I think what gets "Newists" panties in a wad is that they think they are individual, discerning thinkers and don't like to be shown that what they're doing is just spouting what they've absorbed through the educational establishment and other influencers. If it looks, walks and sounds like a duck...

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