Classical Music Forum banner

Do you consider the laptop to be a musical instrument?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 40.8%
  • No

    Votes: 106 59.2%

Do you consider the laptop to be a musical instrument?

80K views 352 replies 99 participants last post by  Ethereality 
#1 ·
I'm curious to find out what you all think on this matter.

Whatever your opinion, why not give us an insight into why you feel the way you do?
 
G
#91 ·
That's it. That's what we need. More categories. At least one more.

So we have things that were designed to be musical instruments, a category that came after the one of things that weren't designed to be musical instruments but can be used thusly. (Rocks and sticks and conch shells and hollow logs and such-like.)

And we have instruments that weren't designed as such but have come to be used that way enough to be considered ordinary instruments now, like the anvil and the auto brake drum and the turntable.

And finally, we have things like the laptop. As a computer, the laptop can do (be) all sorts of things, depending on what software you have installed. If you have music software installed, sound-generating software, then your laptop is, among other things, a musical instrument, designed to be such. (The primary purpose of the software is to turn the multi-functional laptop into a musical instrument.)

(This is my synoptic response to Elgar's on page two of this discussion in which he identifies two categories. Thanks of course to Gorm Less and Herzeleide and Krummhorn and Frasier and Lang and Weston and Elgarian, who have already said everything contained in this synopsis.)
 
G
#92 ·
some guy You are confused again, most of us enjoy modern [your word] music [but not all modern music] the means of delivery is important to some of us, e.g. Beethoven's P Son #14 in c# min, would not be enjoyable to me if played on the Bag Pipes or Moriori nose flute, but I admit there are those on this forum that would go into raptures and declare it to be the next important leap forward in music, what you have called an exclusive attitude could be just good taste, please don't say that is subjective, that much is so obvious, but is the opinion of the majority.

You also ask us to "look outside this thread for a moment, to practicing musicians playing music. Do any of these people use the laptop to create music? To perform music? Yes, they do." I would say a lot of musicians use the PC as a tool to help with many forms of music "had it been around in my day I would have used it" but it is IMHO a wild stretch of the imagination to try and class it as a musical instrument
 
#96 ·
e.g. Beethoven's P Son #14 in c# min, would not be enjoyable to me if played on the Bag Pipes or Moriori nose flute, but I admit there are those on this forum that would go into raptures and declare it to be the next important leap forward in music,


Beethoven left us instruction as to how he wanted his music to be played and we must play it as such. The goal of a composer is not to violate the intentions of past composers as you seem to be infering here, but to create meaningful art that is representative of it's time.

As for Yagan Kiely's coment about composers desperately trying to be different they turn anything into an instrument with absolutely no reasoning behind it, this has never happened in the history of musicmaking. Composers have enough imagination and talent to compose fresh, original work without desperation. Also, composers always have a reason for infering their various musical events. The reason must come before the decision to include, say, a laptop in a composition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Klassik
G
#93 ·
Actually Andante, the word I used in the post I think you're referring to was "contemporary."

As to whether most people on this board enjoy contemporary classical music or not, well, judging by the responses to this thread, it's about half and half. And I'm not confused, per se, but I am puzzled by your reference to means of delivery. I've never made that an issue. (Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?) I don't think of the laptop as a means to perform older music, although it could certainly be used to do that, just as the Moonlight could be played on the bagpipes, but as a way to produce new music, music that fits its capacities and capabilities.

I was also using exclusive and inclusive as descriptors not evaluators. Simply to describe how people could be expected vote on Elgar's question. (And the voting has indeed been, predictably enough, right along those lines, has it not?)

And finally, the wild stretch of the imagination you refer to is no more than simply an observation that music software turns any computer into a musical instrument. Hardly wild, hardly a stretch, though possibly quite imaginative!
 
G
#95 ·
Actually Andante, the word I used in the post I think you're referring to was "contemporary."
I was not quoting you, and 99% of readers will understand the meaning of contemporary [belonging to the present time] and modern [characteristic of present-day art and music] do you have a different meaning if so what is it?? If not what is the purpose of your remark ??
And I'm not confused, per se, but I am puzzled by your reference to means of delivery. I've never made that an issue. (Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?)
You see, I did not say you had made it an issue but if you read my post again you should be able to understand my point.
Judging by your remarks to my posts and others [Yagen] you either deliberately hide behind words or are simply being bloody minded. while it makes things interesting it does tend to get a bit much :)
 
#94 ·
it's about half and half.
Since when did what is discussed in this thread divide anything? Electronic instruments are by no means the definition of contemporary music, I can enjoy contemporary music with being bombarded with composer's desperately trying to be different they turn anything into an instrument with absolutely no reasoning behind it.
 
#97 ·
Composers have enough imagination and talent to compose fresh, original work without desperation.
So you are telling me that if someone wanted to write brilliant music in a compeltely unoriginal style in the mid 20th century, or in a modern era, they would become extremely famous? No they wouldn't. The culture of 20th century music doesn't care about the quality of the music, the only important aspect is the piece's concept being original and completely unique. Composers are plagued by the idea of unique because they are forced to. It is desperation to become known and actually make a profession out of their music. Musicality is not the driving force. Same thing with copyright actually - it doesn't promote creativity per se. You seem to be getting the order confused, they compose 'music' which has a completely unique concept because of desperation, they don't compose it 'desperately' they do a very good job at being unique.

Also, composers always have a reason for inferring their various musical events.
There is no valid reason to invent an instrument when a perfectly good (i.e. sounds virtually the same and/or same attack/decay etc.) equivalent already exists in the accepted and un-contentious options.

Something which combines the two arguments above: Let's say that someone managed to compose music based on Einsteins Quantum Theory; now while this may be a wildly unique concept, it would be difficult to translate that into musicallity, but the concept itself would imidiatly render it a good composition.

Also how do you have good or bad unique music when there is nothing to compare it to? It's as if they are trying to avoid critique. Also how do you critique something which avoids all rules? It may indeed invent the rules, but how can you tell if those rules are bent of broken to the benifit of the music? There is no history and you can't tell.
 
#98 ·
So you are telling me that if someone wanted to write brilliant music in a compeltely unoriginal style in the mid 20th century, or in a modern era, they would become extremely famous?
I'm not saying that at all, I'm not sure where you derived this synopsis of my argument from!

The culture of 20th century music doesn't care about the quality of the music,
How on earth can you say this?! Composers care as much today about the quality of their music as Bach did! The quality has not changed, just the style.

There is no valid reason to invent an instrument when a perfectly good (i.e. sounds virtually the same and/or same attack/decay etc.) equivalent already exists in the accepted and un-contentious options.
There are many valid reasons; making this statement highly flawed! Anyway, why would composers want to imitate a violin on the laptop? Because it's cheaper yes, but composers of the laptop don't seek to imitate existing instruments as you appear to believe. From what I've heard their goals are to create new and unexplored soundworlds which I find very exiting.

There is no history and you can't tell.
Not for those who don't research anything and close their ears at anything that doesn't sound like a violin or piano!
 
#99 ·
Contemporary Music

Using a laptop in order to create music is in no way or means desperation. It can create sounds that would take a lot longer to master with existing instruments, plus it has the ability to oscillate waveforms into new and unique sounds. If you were that much of a musician you would recognise that everything has its place in music, even the triangle in an orchestra plays an important role in the whole piece. If you were to take the final product and say 'yes I really enjoyed that' does it ultimately matter how it was produced? A musical instrument, by definition, is any existing matter that can be oscillated (whether that be hitting it, rubbing it, or synthesising it using a computer) in order to create a sound.
 
#110 ·
I think you are taking the ****,
He's not taking the ****, he is rightly stating what music is! You are just too damn close minded to realise that a toilet roll is considered, by definition, a musical instrument, as is a laptop! And for whoever said that a laptop only plays sound, like a radio, you do not know how wrong you are! You do not twist the knobs on a radio until the tune you want comes out, you flick between stations to see what existing composed tunes are on. A laptop has the power to edit the sound, and compose, and create new sounds, a radio doesn't!
 
G
#113 · (Edited)
Schoenberg, you have altered the spelling on my post, WHY??? be more careful in the future

Elgar You also changed the spelling, I do hope this is not catching, I purposely used the Internet friendly version of the word if this upsets you I could make a suggestion but that would be bordering on the uncouth, if you do not like the responses you get from your original question why bother posting it at all? sticks and stones old chap,

I just realised, what are you doing awake at this time of the day??
 
G
#114 ·
if you do not like the responses you get from your original question why bother posting it at all?
So people can make rude and unfriendly personal remarks, and that's OK so long as they hide behind transparent misspellings like ***** and psis?

That's cpar!

Well, now that we've got the potty mouth all taken care of, how about we talk about music for a change? Now there's an idea! Talk about music on a music discussion forum!!

I told someone this morning about this thread, and he couldn't imagine what kind of forum would contain people on it who would argue that the laptop is not a musical instrument. When I told him, he laughed and said "Oh, that explains it, then."

Wow, is that the kind of reputation we want for Talk Classical?

Wait wait. I'm still not talking about music. OK, if I look carefully on my CDs, I often see three words that almost always mean "good listening ahead"--turntables, laptops, and objects. One of the paths music has taken since around 1920 or so (almost 90 years ago--how many posters here are even close to 90?) is towards using any old thing to make noise with. Now, not everyone will approve of this path. But then, I don't approve of Bax or Rubbra or Higdon* or Greenberg, but I also don't go around psising people off who do like them by haunting neo-romantic threads and spouting imprecations on the cpar these people write. Let the people who enjoy it enjoy it in peace, I say.

There's a lot of really fine music out there to listen to. Some of it you might not like at all right now. But "oh, well." Give your ears a chance, there's only enjoyment ahead for you. Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll listen to my CD of GOL, a laptop quartet from Paris. You can find some clips at http://www.mimaroglumusicsales.com/artists/gol.html

*I do approve of Jennifer the person, you understand. She's very nice.
 
#120 ·
If you actually bother to read what I say and not take it out of context or misinterpret or misrepresent me, I'll bother getting back to you.
Either you need to explain what you mean more or just don't bother posting on here at all. I have never taken you out of context, you are just making accusations and remarks that I do not agree with, is that not the purpose of this website in the first place? Thought so...
 
G
#117 · (Edited)
[QUOTE=some guy;39907]So people can make rude and unfriendly personal remarks, and that's OK so long as they hide behind transparent misspellings like ***** and psis?

Well, now that we've got the potty mouth all taken care of, how about we talk about music for a change? Now there's an idea! Talk about music on a music discussion forum!!

I told someone this morning about this thread, and he couldn't imagine what kind of forum would contain people on it who would argue that the laptop is not a musical instrument. When I told him, he laughed and said "Oh, that explains it, then."

Hide behind something transparent, Confusion again ?

I did not think ***** was miss er spelled :(

What is the potty mouth??

This someone you were talking to seems to hold the same values as some guy:) what a coincidence :rolleyes:
 
#123 ·
Either you need to explain what you mean more or just don't bother posting on here at all. I have never taken you out of context, you are just making accusations and remarks that I do not agree with, is that not the purpose of this website in the first place? Thought so...
You misinterpreted me once, and the rest of your argument were ad hominems. It seems it is against forum rules for me to point out what and how you misrepresented me, so you are just going to have to guess.

You quoted me out of context, and misrepresented what I said. I never said that composers write desperately or laptops are desperation. That would be a lie to imply that I did, which you have on frequent occasions. Never said that, so go back and read all my posts so that you can actually understand what I said. Before you understand, we can;t get back on topic.

For the majority who think the laptop isn't an instrument, how do you explain it's frequent use in the popular music insustry?
I already have. Try reading.

Oh and to the mods, did you know that you can;t discuss a topic in depth without making small diversions to a related topic to clarify something? Amazing huh? Maybe you should take that into your reasoning. Oh, and when someone misrepresents you, I didn't defending myself was not allowed. But it's good to see that you let his comment up. Great job! Keep up the fake moderating.
 
#124 ·
I already have. Try reading.
Your comment that "producers want to save money" does not justify your argument. In fact it almost justifies the use of the laptop as an instrument! Keep it up, you just might make it to being an open-minded individual!

Can I get a response from others as to why the popular music industry would use the laptop as an instrument on such a regular basis? Particularly those who voted "NO".
 
#125 ·
Keep it up, you just might make it to being an open-minded individual!
Nice fallacy! Did you know, that, in arguments you are meant to avoid fallacies? Not rely on them? Just a quick tip okay?

Your comment that "producers want to save money" does not justify your argument. In fact it almost justifies the use of the laptop as an instrument!
Sorry, I forgot money was more important than musicality. Again YOU are backing up me saying that composers are so desperate to 'stick out' (no publicity is bad publicity) and make money that they sacrifice quality for concept, the music for uniqueness.

There are obviously other reasons, pop music is such a genre that you don't really appreciate the minute detail (for one mostly it isn't there), but the emotion and the power of the music is what is immediately obvious to you.
 
#127 ·
Sorry, I forgot money was more important than musicality. Again YOU are backing up me saying that composers are so desperate to 'stick out' (no publicity is bad publicity) and make money that they sacrifice quality for concept, the music for uniqueness.
This is something you have made up in your head. I was asking you about what you meant when you gave the comment you told me to read about music producers trying to save money by using the laptop as an instrument. From this you have made me out to be someone who doesn't give a damn about music quality! You are so eager to hand out ad hominems and yet some of your posts are quite baffling!

There are obviously other reasons, pop music is such a genre that you don't really appreciate the minute detail (for one mostly it isn't there), but the emotion and the power of the music is what is immediately obvious to you.
Here you imply that the laptop can be used to create immediate and obvious emotional power when used as an instrument. Does this mean you see the laptop as an instrument now?
 
  • Like
Reactions: eugeneonagain
G
#130 ·
Gorm,

It's no sort of argument at all. It's an anecdote.

The faceless friend (actually it was my second son, who plays laptop, and who has a very nice face, even if it does look a bit like mine) did no sort of trashing at all. He merely observed that its being a classical forum explained how people could be seriously maintaining that laptops are not musical instruments. Nowhere else would that happen.

And in fact, there are other classical forums where very few people would claim that it's not. That is just to say that this classical forum is not the only one. The posters to this thread are not the only posters in the world.

I presented the anecdote principally to illustrate that there's more going on in the world, more opinions about things, more opinions favorable to the musics some of the posters just cannot accept, than many of those posters seem able to acknowledge. Bizarre? No, just a little look outside. If you don't want to look outside, too bad. You lose!

Some
 
#132 ·
This is something you have made up in your head. I was asking you about what you meant when you gave the comment you told me to read about music producers trying to save money by using the laptop as an instrument. From this you have made me out to be someone who doesn't give a damn about music quality! You are so eager to hand out ad hominems and yet some of your posts are quite baffling!
Nice misrepresentation. Now. I haven't 'handed out ad hominems', Scheonberg has: not me. Also, where is that article?
 
#133 ·
I haven't 'handed out ad hominems', Scheonberg has.
Excuse me but when have I handed out ad hominems? Which of my arguments have...

[1] Resorted to a charecter attack instead of backing up my claims with valid reasons? I think you will find that all of my claims are backed up with valid reasons. When I did resort to charecter attack, it was becuase you were annoying me, not becuase I wanted to back up any statement!

Find out what words mean before you accuse me of them!
 
#134 ·
Find out what words mean before you accuse me of them!
Why do you add this? Does it make you feel smart or something? What's the point? Can't you control your emotions for a debate? Someone who is that emotion can't think straight and with an unbiased mind. If you clear your mind of the emotion you can think clearer. Think Vulcan!

You are obviously an ignorant musician and I feel somewhat sorry for you, because you are limiting music to what you feel it should be.
Ad hominem
By saying that computers only 'imitate' instruments that already exist, I am unsure whether you are being dismissive and ignorant to back up your failing argument.
Ad hominem
Computers can manufacture sounds that we could only dream of making ourselves, taking listeners to a different level, and creating new genres of music.
Not an ad hominem
If you are that ignorant that you would totally defy this fact then you are a close-minded fool.
Ad hominem

pquote]Who in their right frame of mind would deliberately outlaw any musical instrument? That totally contradicts the fact that you call yourself a musician![/quote]Ad hominem

All bar one sentence in that paragraph is an ad hominem fallacy. And apart from that one sentence, you didn't once even attempt to back up anything with a reason at all.

Not to mention, you have failed to back your arguments up with any reasons, let alone valid ones, for as long as I've seen you (if memory serves, maybe once or twice).
 
#135 · (Edited)
Looks like you're handing out ad hominem yellow cards to Mr Schoenberg! His reasoning comes from your responses or have you been so busy trying to spot ad hominems that you forgot that this is a debate?

Why can't you keep to the matter at hand and answer my question? You have implied in a previous post that the laptop can be used to create immediate and obvious emotional power when used as an instrument. Does this mean you see the laptop as an instrument now?
 
G
#136 ·
Music Psychology and Music Theory: Problems and Prospects Music Psychology and Music Theory: Problems and Prospects Carol L. Krumhansl Music Theory Spectrum, Vol. 17, No. 1 (Spring, 1995), pp. 53-80

The Evolution of Twelve-Note Music The Evolution of Twelve-Note Music Oliver Neighbour Proceedings of the Royal Musical Association, 81st Sess., (1954 - 1955), pp. 49-61

Review: Are There Two Tonal Practices in Nineteenth-Century Music? Review: Are There Two Tonal Practices in Nineteenth-Century Music? Robert P. Morgan Reviewed work(s): The Second Practice of Nineteeth-Century Tonality by William Kinderman; Harald Krebs Journal of Music Theory, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 135-163

I also checked with my analysis tutor, Stephen Jan, who has written books on this matter and he has clarified that even though there is a physical basis for the dominant/tonic relationship, the recognition of this is learned through exposure to scales and tonal music.
That's one amazing post Ed what exactly is it referring to :D:D:D
 
#137 ·
Kiely was pushing me for an article on this thread in relation to another thread which led to me to accidentally post them on this thread.
 
#141 ·
Without insulting anyone, posting ad hominems or fallacies, I am interested to know how those who voted "NO" explain the use of the laptop in pop. I calmly ask for posts illustrating your opinions.

To be honest, and with the greatest of respect, I personally think the moderators have been quite lenient. Although I thank them for this, it's clear that if people argue in such an aggressive manner that their valuable comments are overshadowed, this does not equate to good, healthy discussions.
 
G
#142 ·
Well I am tired and bored by this thread, it has become farcical and to Quote JTech82 "No, a laptop is not an instrument. Why? Because it's a freaking computer that's why!". Now if this is not acceptable to some "so be it" I am unsubscribing from this thread so the best of luck to those wishing to keep banging their heads against a wall:D
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top