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Thread: Arnold Schoenberg (1874 – 1951)

  1. #391
    Senior Member dgee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    Interestingly enough, even Glenn Gould, one of the biggest advocates of Schoenberg, called the twelve-tone system as such "silly" and "childish". Yet, he said, it somehow allowed Schoenberg to write his greatest music.
    I shouldn't think the highly eccentric Gould is the best person to comment on anything - even composers he championed

  2. #392
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StlukesguildOhio View Post
    I just got finished listening to Schoenberg's Violin Concerto for the first time. Hilary Hahn is the soloist.

    I am reminded of Jascha Heifetz refusing to play it, deeming it "unplayable."

    What was he really saying? "It's not showy enough for me". Or perhaps "I'm not interested in putting in the extra work required to learn an atonal concerto".

    But unplayable for Heifetz? Heck no!


    Or perhaps he just didn't like it. Sounds like a good enough reason not to play to me. That's my reason for not listening much to Schoenberg.








    Its alright to have taste.

    Beauty beats ennui every time.
    Last edited by Marschallin Blair; Apr-04-2015 at 15:50.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    Its alright to have taste.

    Beauty beats ennui every time.
    Indeed. I would far rather hear Hahn's beautiful performance of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto than what would likely have been an ennui-inducing performance from Heifetz.

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  5. #394
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerian View Post
    Indeed. I would far rather hear Hahn's beautiful performance of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto than what would likely have been an ennui-inducing performance from Heifetz.
    Well, I'd just ask the waiter for a different menu, myself.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    Well, I'd just ask the waiter for a different menu, myself.
    Well, I'd have to disagree with your taste, then.

    I am more in line with Stokowski, who declared the concerto a masterpiece. You may say that his taste is bad if you wish.

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  9. #396
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerian View Post
    Well, I'd have to disagree with your taste, then.

    I am more in line with Stokowski, who declared the concerto a masterpiece. You may say that his taste is bad if you wish
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerian View Post
    .
    I'd rather take Schoenberg at his word:

    "My music is not lovely."

    - Theodor Adorno quoting Schoenberg in "Art and the Arts"
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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  11. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    [COLOR="#0000CD"]

    I'd rather take Schoenberg at his word:

    "My music is not lovely."

    - Theodor Adorno quoting Schoenberg in "Art and the Arts"
    Ah yes, it may not be superficially lovely, but it is deeply beautiful.

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  13. #398
    Senior Member Dim7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgee View Post
    Do you think you were you in a good position to judge the 12 tone method? My conservatory music education and extra reading and score analysis when I later became interested in Schoenberg still leaves me unable to clearly describe how it happens - except to say it's beholden to overriding expressive concerns.
    I was talking about the basic rules of 12-tone music, they are not that difficult to understand, which is not to say any particular 12-tone composers pieces are easy to analyze (the same works for diatonic-tonal composers as well). I'm not necessarily the best person to judge the method but I just wanted to say that my experience was quite opposite to the "looks interesting on paper but sounds bad as music".

    Quote Originally Posted by dgee
    Just open your ears - stop worrying about rigid, preordainded phrase lengths and tonal heirarchies that characterise the classical and romantic periods and just listen to the music!
    What makes you think I'm not doing just that?
    Last edited by Dim7; Apr-04-2015 at 21:23.

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  15. #399
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerian View Post
    Ah yes, it may not be superficially lovely, but it is deeply beautiful.
    Or perhaps its a deeply-structured syntax that's only superficially lovely.
    Last edited by Marschallin Blair; Apr-04-2015 at 19:50.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyphemus View Post
    Something unplayable for Heifetz ? Methinks someone is having someone on. They didn't call this guy 'God's Fiddler' for nothing.
    Heifetz played conservative violin music. The furthest out on a limb for him seemed to be the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto (My favorite performance of this underrated concerto, by the way with Munch/Boston Symphony). He never recorded the Bartok No. 2 or Berg Concertos; staples of the repertoire.

    Heifetz and Schoenberg were both on staff at the UCLA music department at the same time. I'm sure he didn't want to ruffle Schoenberg's feathers by telling him, "this stuff sounds like crap" to his conservative ears; so he told him it was "unplayable"; an obvious lie, since Heifetz could wipe the floor with Hilary Hahn's violin technique and the latter seems to play the Schoenberg effortlessly.

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  18. #401
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
    Heifetz played conservative violin music. The furthest out on a limb for him seemed to be the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto (My favorite performance of this underrated concerto, by the way with Munch/Boston Symphony). He never recorded the Bartok No. 2 or Berg Concertos; staples of the repertoire.
    Heifetz does seem to have been a tad conservative. A quote: "I occasionally play works by contemporary composers for two reasons. First to discourage the composer from writing any more and secondly to remind myself how much I appreciate Beethoven."


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  20. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Heifetz does seem to have been a tad conservative. A quote: "I occasionally play works by contemporary composers for two reasons. First to discourage the composer from writing any more and secondly to remind myself how much I appreciate Beethoven."
    Nothing says "conservative" better then that quote. Too bad Heifetz didn't grow with the times. In later life, his Beethoven, Brahms and Tchaikovsky seemed played by rote. Bartok 2, Berg and Schoenberg may have been just the prescription he needed to rejuvenate his playing.

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  22. #403
    Senior Member Dim7's Avatar
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    Nice Schoenberg quote about Bizet, Stravinsky and Ravel:

    “Now comes the reckoning! Now we will throw these mediocre kitschmongers into slavery, and teach them to venerate the German spirit and to worship the German God."

  23. #404
    Senior Member Richannes Wrahms's Avatar
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    In retrospect 'kitschmongers' makes me think of Poulenc and his pals.

  24. #405
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Another Schoenberg quote, to a pupil in 1921: “Today I have discovered something which will assure the supremacy of German music for the next 100 years.” (Britannica)


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