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Thread: Arnold Schoenberg (1874 – 1951)

  1. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I'm starting to discover the softer, more accessible aspects of the String Trio. I think the opening salvo is just a bunch of expressionist "stunts."
    It's not the spikiness that's a problem to me, is somehow communicating some sort of form, structure, logic in the long episodes.

    I think there's a whole hidden programme to it to do with him being diagnosed with a dickey heart.
    Last edited by Mandryka; May-21-2019 at 21:09.

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    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    4 and 5 for me, though 3 is incredible too. 6 I haven't really "gotten" yet. The first 2 also deserve more credit.

    Anyway, back to the subject at hand – does anyone know what Schoenberg thought of Bartók?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    does anyone know what Schoenberg thought of Bartók?
    I can't find anything interesting. Nothing more than in Budapest Schoenberg programmed some of Bartok's music.

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    Senior Member Sid James's Avatar
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    I remember reading a less than complimentary opinion by Schoenberg of Bartok, basically that he was dressing up primitive peasant music to make it look like serious music. I think I read it in Harold C. Schonberg’s Lives of the Great Composers. Quite a sting, but not as memorable as “Der kleine Modernsky” that was levelled at Igor.

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    Ah, I see. Safe to assume Schoenberg, then, was no different from any other composer in his disregard for his contemporaries...? I have read less than flattering things that he has said about his own students, especially Berg, so I would hate to see his opinion of the composers of rivaling schools

    I would like to read that "kleine Modernsky" quote about Stravinsky. Where is that from?

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    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    Has anyone heard Schoenberg's 1st string quartet? It is a huge work, intimidating.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Ah, I see. Safe to assume Schoenberg, then, was no different from any other composer in his disregard for his contemporaries...? I have read less than flattering things that he has said about his own students, especially Berg, so I would hate to see his opinion of the composers of rivaling schools

    I would like to read that "kleine Modernsky" quote about Stravinsky. Where is that from?
    In his "Society for Private Musical Performances ," Schoenberg included Reger, Debussy, Webern, J. Strauss, among others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societ...l_Performances
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, just as long as I can still breathe." -Me

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    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    J as in Johann Strauss? Can't say I'm terribly surprised that Schoenberg was a fan of his. Alban Berg wrote a transcription of Strauss' Wein, Weib und Gesang. Outside of that, cool to note that he used to dig Debussy. Two towering masters of their time.

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    Senior Member Sid James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Ah, I see. Safe to assume Schoenberg, then, was no different from any other composer in his disregard for his contemporaries...

    I would like to read that "kleine Modernsky" quote about Stravinsky. Where is that from?
    Schoenberg comes across as struggling to reconcile his respect of tradition with his need to break away from it: “I am a conservative who was forced to become a radical.” I think this is part of the reason for his bitterness towards other composers. He saw them as being compromised while he went the whole hog.

    I would recommend Meredith Oakes’ short book Mr Modernsky: how Stravinsky survived Schoenberg if you’re interested in the ideological brouhaha between Arnie and Igor, and its fallout until recently. It’s been a few years since I read it but basically Schoenberg was saying that Stravinsky wasn’t the real deal, he was modernist lite. I’d come across the quote in other sources before reading the Oakes. I found it to be an informative, well written and entertaining read.
    Last edited by Sid James; May-23-2019 at 10:52.

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  14. #775
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    J as in Johann Strauss? Can't say I'm terribly surprised that Schoenberg was a fan of his. Alban Berg wrote a transcription of Strauss' Wein, Weib und Gesang. Outside of that, cool to note that he used to dig Debussy. Two towering masters of their time.
    Here are the arrangements.

    Strauss J. Schoenberg 200 dpi.jpegStrauss J. Schoenberg Back 200 dpi.jpeg
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, just as long as I can still breathe." -Me

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    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    Very interesting! To what extent do these arrangements exhibit the touchstones of the composer-arrangers in question, though? In other words, are they more Strauss or more Berg/Schoenberg etc?

    For example, Webern's arrangement of the Bach Ricercar for 6 Voices, is pure Webern with just a little Bach. In any case Bach himself certainly would never in a million years have wrote it like that.

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    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    I like this one, KenOC aka "the Modernist" turned me on to it



    Here is another that grazes a nearby pasture



    Also, the CD by the Boston Chamber Players,. which I don't have, but some is included in the DG Berg box.



    Schoenberg's Vienna parties were the source for a lot of this stuff, and often included harmonium, something I seek out in these recordings.

    When I saw the Vienna Phil at Weill Hall, they encored with the J Strauss 10-minute uber-waltz. The basses were dancing as they played, delightfully...
    Last edited by philoctetes; May-23-2019 at 16:43.

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    Senior Member Janspe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Has anyone heard Schoenberg's 1st string quartet? It is a huge work, intimidating.
    It is indeed a massive work, a towering masterpiece if there ever was one. I'm not as familiar with it as with many other Schoenberg scores, but I've heard it a few times and keep falling more deeply in love with it.

    The D major quartet (not counted among the four numbered ones) from a few years before the 1st is definitely worth exploring as well!

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  21. #779
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Very interesting! To what extent do these arrangements exhibit the touchstones of the composer-arrangers in question, though? In other words, are they more Strauss or more Berg/Schoenberg etc?

    For example, Webern's arrangement of the Bach Ricercar for 6 Voices, is pure Webern with just a little Bach. In any case Bach himself certainly would never in a million years have wrote it like that.
    In the Webern, you can hear it in the orchestration, sparse in places, and the way he sometimes breaks the melody line and shares it with other instruments. He seems concerned with creating coloristic effects with instruments. The same way he handled the Bach transcriptions, and in Passacaglia.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, just as long as I can still breathe." -Me

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  23. #780
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    @philocetes, what was that first CD you pictured? It's too little to read. I have the Linos Ensemble, really great stuff. The DG title looks interesting, too.

    I agree about the harmonium; it sounds like he used it when he needed sustained woodwind or brass parts.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Yesterday at 14:18.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, just as long as I can still breathe." -Me

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