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Thread: Bruckner 7 recommendations

  1. #136
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    Who is the brilliant marketer who designed that Eichhorn boxset cover??

  2. #137
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    Who is the brilliant marketer who designed that Eichhorn boxset cover??
    Not sure, but I had no idea the former Pope Benedict was also a conductor.
    Last edited by flamencosketches; Jul-02-2020 at 11:26.

  3. #138
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    When I was a kid I told my parents I wanted to be a conductor. They put me on the roof in a thunderstorm.

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  5. #139
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    I can only assume that Furtwangler has been mentioned as one of the several must-hear recommendations.
    Hard to imagine...

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  7. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by trem0lo View Post
    I own the Solti and Jochum sets—Solti's interpretations are very good but not as well-regarded as Jochum's, whom I like slightly better as a sensitive conductor. I prefer the Solti set, though, for the modern sound and Chicago Symphony brass... the Dresden orchestra's brass section sounds like they're about to have an aneurism at times and hence go out of tune and /or get very shrill.

    I picked up the Haitink 7 recently. Only listened to the Adagio but I loved it. I sang under Haitink for a Beethoven 9 years ago and the slow movement brought me to tears and was the highlight... the man can handle an adagio (which is what you want the 7 for anyway).
    I like the Karajan version overall, but do think that Solti is good here, and it's a bit disappointing that he has so few advocates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post
    I like the Karajan version overall, but do think that Solti is good here, and it's a bit disappointing that he has so few advocates.
    for me, Solti and Bernstein are the giants of their generation.
    Solti does the best Bruckner 7 Adagio I've ever heard...superb flow, and tension - release leading to the grand climax...Tennstedt evokes an amazing climax from the CSO - the trumpets seem to have unlimited crescendo power - but overall, Solti handles the total movement the best..he always excelled at those long crescendi to ultimate climax - Wagner Ring, Shost #8, Bruckner syms, etc...

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  10. #142
    Senior Member Merl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    My first was Walter/ColSO, way back when I was in high school!!...I too still like it....tho now the Solti/CSO version probably takes top prize...von Matacic/CzPO is also very fine, so is Tennstedt/CSO...
    Come on Heck, you can't fool us. Recorded music hadn't even been invented when you were in high school!
    Last edited by Merl; Jul-03-2020 at 00:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merl View Post
    Come on Heck, you can't fool us. Recorded music hadn't even been invented when you were in high school!
    LOL!! it was a big sewing needle carving grooves in a big wax cylinder, lol!!

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  13. #144
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    There's much to admire and discover in this double cd package from Eloquence/Decca. They pop up once in a while at reasonable prices on Evil-bay & Co.

    van beinum bruckner.jpg

    Regards,

    Vincula

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  15. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaneyes View Post
    Have to agree that HvK's Bruckner 7 is apocalyptic, the built-up to the climate in the second movement is earth-shattering. The sonority alone is worth listening.

    For Bruckner 7/8/9 my favorite is Guilini with VPO. Guilini has this incredible ability to sustain a broader tempo than most and maintaining the shape throughout. These recordings come off as highly solemn and spiritual which is apt for Bruckner to my ear.

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  17. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniversalTuringMachine View Post
    Have to agree that HvK's Bruckner 7 is apocalyptic, the built-up to the climate in the second movement is earth-shattering.....
    You want earth-shattering in B 7/II ?? - try Solti or Tennstedt with Chicago!! unbelievable....vK sounds a bit tame in comparison.

  18. #147
    Senior Member Allegro Con Brio's Avatar
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    Karajan’s VPO Bruckner 7 has a noble, dignified air that makes each movement sing in an unbroken arc from beginning to end. It conjures up the magisterial peaks of the Alps like his recording of Strauss’s Alpensinfonie. One of a handful of very special HvK recordings, along with his Prokofiev 5, Mahler 9 and ‘70’s Strauss tone poems, that showcase his gifts at their greatest IMO.
    "If we understood the world, we would realize that there is a logic of harmony underlying its manifold apparent dissonances." - Jean Sibelius

    "Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Beethoven tells you what it’s like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it’s like to be human. Bach tells you what it’s like to be the universe." - Douglas Adams

  19. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegro Con Brio View Post
    Karajan’s VPO Bruckner 7 has a noble, dignified air that makes each movement sing in an unbroken arc from beginning to end. It conjures up the magisterial peaks of the Alps like his recording of Strauss’s Alpensinfonie. One of a handful of very special HvK recordings, along with his Prokofiev 5, Mahler 9 and ‘70’s Strauss tone poems, that showcase his gifts at their greatest IMO.
    Wholeheartedly agree with this take. HvK made several recordings of Bruckner 7 since the early days of PO, so this work must have a special place in his heart (the DG VPO is pretty telling)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    You want earth-shattering in B 7/II ?? - try Solti or Tennstedt with Chicago!! unbelievable....vK sounds a bit tame in comparison.
    Per your recommendation, I dusted off my Solti with a score in hand and boy I was disappointed. The CSO strings are fine and dynamics are finely observed by Solti but the brass and the winds were drowned up to the first double forte. The CSO's lean sound simply cannot compare with VPO's voluptuous sound in the 80s: the strings sounds so lush and velvety the brass shines through the speaker.

    More on conducting, I hate to break to you, but Solti here is quite stiff and wooden. There is very little expression and it felt like he is just going through the motion. There is no long line/arc or sense of direction like in the HvK VPO recording. Example: just focus on the searching sextuplets around bar 160 all the way up to the climatic triple forte, there is hardly any urgency in Solti whereas in HvK the tension is almost unbearable. The reason is that Solti conducted as if those sextuplets have tenuto on them instead of the slur.

    Earth-shattering doesn't just mean big sonority, but the internal effect on the listener. Bruckner is all about 95% of gradually building up energy and release it in the final 5%. There would be nothing to blast off if all the pieces are not carefully balanced or when the sense of inevitability is not established.
    Last edited by UniversalTuringMachine; Jul-05-2020 at 05:19.

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  21. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniversalTuringMachine View Post
    Per your recommendation, I dusted off my Solti with a score in hand and boy I was disappointed. The CSO strings are fine and dynamics are finely observed by Solti but the brass and the winds were drowned up to the first double forte.
    Sorry, this is just wrong. The VPO strings are full, but the brass is recessed, and lacking at the climax, too suppressed. The CSO brass blazes forth splendidly, and they just keep pouring it on - you may not like it, but the power of the sound is undeniable....In Tennstedt's recording it is unbelievable - the crescendo into the climax is amazing, nothing like it. Overall, Solti does a better job building to the great climax, but Tennstedt really delivers a huge climax when it arrives. von Karajan sounds limited, suppressed in comparison
    The VPO,, a great orchestra, for sure, is simply no match for the CSO in full sonority of the brass and winds....I've heard them all live, no contest, [different concepts, of course...]
    Solti was great at finding the drama in the music he excelled at the long buildups, the great crescendi, rivalled by very few. His orchestra played with incredible virtuosity, and a stunning dynamic range.

    I don't want to get into another vonKarajan/furtwangler thread here, there have been SO many already on this forum. for me, vK's Bruckner 7 Adagio will remain a bit too tame and suppressed, a trait I find rather common with his work....
    But hey, to each his own - enjoy your HvK......

  22. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    Sorry, this is just wrong. The VPO strings are full, but the brass is recessed, and lacking at the climax, too suppressed. The CSO brass blazes forth splendidly, and they just keep pouring it on - you may not like it, but the power of the sound is undeniable....In Tennstedt's recording it is unbelievable - the crescendo into the climax is amazing, nothing like it. Overall, Solti does a better job building to the great climax, but Tennstedt really delivers a huge climax when it arrives. von Karajan sounds limited, suppressed in comparison
    The VPO,, a great orchestra, for sure, is simply no match for the CSO in full sonority of the brass and winds....I've heard them all live, no contest, [different concepts, of course...]
    Solti was great at finding the drama in the music he excelled at the long buildups, the great crescendi, rivalled by very few. His orchestra played with incredible virtuosity, and a stunning dynamic range.

    I don't want to get into another vonKarajan/furtwangler thread here, there have been SO many already on this forum. for me, vK's Bruckner 7 Adagio will remain a bit too tame and suppressed, a trait I find rather common with his work....
    But hey, to each his own - enjoy your HvK......
    Nobody is getting into Karajan/Furtwangler fanboyism if you don't make such suggestion in the first place. I am not even a fan of HvK, but you have to give credit where credit is due. Listening is not about "big personalities" but "big personalities" sometimes do great things (Solti is one of them).

    What you said is true, CSO's sound is great too (CSO is my home orchestra I am well aware of its sound and legacy) and the brass of CSO is bright and well projected during the 80s. I am not denying that. If you read carefully, I said that the brass is not well balanced or get drowned by the strings (might be sound engineering or interpretation) up to the first double forte of the repeated G sharp chord in the Adagio. After that it's generally pretty great.

    I can also assure you I am not listening to MP3 on the phone, my sound system is up to snuff. VPO can make bad recordings and so-so recordings but this is not of them (especially when it comes to Bruckner), and I don't think I am in the minority, even for people who think HvK is overrated. I admit VPO's brass is not as bright/focused/aggresive as the CSO, but this more of a stylistic choice. But VPO's brass has more warmth and blends into the tutti much better, the idea of sonority should be one gigantic sound, which means the overtone series of each instrument must combine in the right ratio as not to stand out, like an organ in a cathedral (which is a different from having a translucent texture).

    And yes, Solti is a great conductor and he does amazing things, sure, I am not denying that, heck, I sometimes enjoy Solti's Strauss more than HvK, can you imagine? But not here, not to my ear, for the very precise reason I pointed out. You need to look at the score and actually listen to what he did, what he did there is idiosyncratic and just do not sound great, I think it's not subtle, it's obvious and intentional.

    Jochum didn't do that, Wand didn't do that, Bohm didn't do that, Knappertsbusch didn't do that and I can go on forever. Unless Solti is using a different score, it's written clearly on the Robert Haas edition (and Nowak too), those sextuplets have slurs on top! And Solti made them sound like accented notes, like a portato or even a tenuto, just sing it out loud, you will find that there is little to no breathing between the sextuptlets (Yes short of breath also create tension). This creates a well articulated effect from the first violin but the effect sounds stiff rather than expressive because expressiveness requires legato playing.

    I do exaggerate a bit, but I bet you cannot tell the actual tenuto of the repeated D# from the other semiquavers because they all sounds accentuated.

    Let me give you another reason why Solti's buildup in the Adagio is underwhelming: he's tempo is too slow (22bpm vs Celi's 30bpm). With tempo this stretched out, he is still hellbent on getting those semiquavers very even (both rhythmically and dynamically) and pronounced, without a sense of breathing or flow, makes the build up section flat. As a result, both the bass line and the voice in the brass (motive) becomes harder to mentally group together horizontally, and hence the sense of harmonic progression is diminished. The sonority in the climax is very well done, I get that and I have no problem with it, but this is only superficial (it's the 95% build up that matters for Bruckner).

    I am not bashing you or Solti. Of course Maestro must have his reason, which is what interpretation is about. I was excited about your recommendation and took it seriously in the hope of rediscovering a great disc. But it's below expectation for me (you can even compare it to Barenboim's CSO cycle which sounds more fluid). As a Solti fan yourself you must know Solti is more of a technician, a virtuoso, an extrovert who likes micromanaging the details. That's why his wooden expression and tempo rigidity as I mentioned is hardly surprising.

    I am always willing to hear your defense on that specific criticism, to hear why do you think it's better than HvK's 80s VPO recording or many other great recordings (Even analytical conductor like Haitink with RCO manages much greater expression and intensity than Solti). But don't give me that Karajan/Furtwangler thing as if that's relevant somehow.
    Last edited by UniversalTuringMachine; Jul-05-2020 at 09:52.

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