Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 83

Thread: Balloon Debate

  1. #1
    Senior Member PostMinimalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    836
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Smile Balloon Debate

    One of the loveliest traditional types of Debate is what is called a'Balloon Debate'.

    For those of you who don't know what this is I'll explain:

    Imagine a hot-air balloon flying over the mountains with several well known historical characters on board. Then the balloon springs a leak! The only hope of survival is to lose ballast by throwing someone over board or they will all perish as the balloon crashes into the mountains. The characters are represented by speakers in a debate who must expound their achievment and also there fellow travellers shortcomings in order to justify there prolonged presence in the balloon. After each round there is a vote and someone is thrown over board. Then a new leak occurs and the process repeats until there is just one character left, at which point a clearing is sighted and the balloon lands safely with the winner on board.

    I suggest that senior members could adopt their favourite composer as a character and, after a final number of passangers has been reached, each would be given a single post in which to justify there staying on board. After all the posts a week long vote will decide who takes the quick way down, and the balloon will continue on it's way until a new leak occurs.

    Comments and discussion from non participants should be breif and limited to points made in the posts by the participants and not degenerate into a general discussion.

    I say 'senior members' since there is less risk of abandoning the forum in mid debate. Sorry to any junior members who want to take part. May be there will be another such debate in the future at which time you will surely have become senior members.

    Remember you will 'be' the composer, not just a representative for him, so no ad homs to posters themselves, but to the other composers this is permited.

    I would suggest a first come first served system for the volunteers until we get say 8 or so really great composers into the balloon.

    I would like to be in there and I will try to run this as impartially as possible. I will not adopt a character yet since I might deprive someone of a role. I will wait for five or so characters to declare participation and if my composer has not yet been taken I wll join in.

    Declarations should look like this:

    I will adopt the character of 'Composer A' and wish to participate in the TalkClassical Great Composers Balloon Debate.

    So, who's up for an exciting trip across the Alps in a rickety, old, homemade, antique balloon in need of a service?

    Now's your chance to show what you know (and possibly die for a cause)!
    Last edited by PostMinimalist; Mar-27-2009 at 13:57.

  2. #2
    Assistant Administrator Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    S Jersey c. Philadelphia
    Posts
    2,888
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by post-minimalist View Post
    One of the loveliest traditional types of Debate is what is called a'Balloon Debate'.
    Okay...
    Quote Originally Posted by post-minimalist View Post
    I say 'senior members' since there is less risk of abandoning the forum in mid debate. Sorry to any junior members who want to take part. May be there will be another such debate in the future at which time you will surely have become senior members.
    I understand the logic to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by post-minimalist View Post
    Remember you will 'be' the composer, not just a representative for him
    ...which brings up a question- how much "role-playing" is expected? One could "role-play" a composer, apply his arguments and make people more inclined to dismiss him.
    Quote Originally Posted by post-minimalist View Post
    no ad homs to posters themselves, but to the other composers this is permitted.
    Not sure this is a good idea. It could get inflammatory pretty quickly. Sample example (shown for hypothetical reasons, and not IN ANY WAY indicative of my feelings): someone remarking to "Tchaikovsky,"... "you won't even give posterity the benefit of passing the genetic material that contributed to your abilities on to the next generation... so you're less use to us than someone who will."

    In theory, I like the idea. It might need some work, though.

  3. #3
    Senior Member PostMinimalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    836
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    In balloon debates name-calling, although within the bounderies of the game, is not encouraged but if say, someone were playing the role of Birtwhistle and he decided to call Tchaikovsky 'gay' then that would have a detrimental effect on Birtwhistle's popuarity rather than Tchaikovsky's. Thus hastening his own exit and early demise.

    By using the argument which you gave above though Birtwhistle would be considered quite within limits as trying to justify his presence in the balloon. i.e. his willingness to pass to next generations his musical DNA. (Not a very convincing argument though!)

    I know what you mean, though and I would keep aclose check on this kind of thing.

    Yes role playing is 100%.

    Posts would look something like this:

    'Well, I didn't see Mozart or Brahms getting up at 6 in the morning every Sunday to copy the parts for his Cantatas! I am so dilligent about my work it will cost me my eye-sight! My music is the foundation of the diatonic tonal system of all western music unlike mr Schoenberg over there! with such an imense contribution I should be allowed to stay in this damnable contraption for another round!'

    JSB.


    Only much longer!

    What do you think?

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I can think of several problems.

    One is that it may be completely out of character for some great composers to engage in the kind of debate you envisage. Take Schubert as an example. He wouldn't have rubbished other composers in order to save his own skin, as he was a modest, withdrawn kind of person who shunned the limelight. Another example is Schumann who, if caught on the right day, may have been first to volunteer to jump out of the balloon at any sign of trouble, given his mental issues.

    Secondly, adjudication. There seems to be an attempt to re-write the rules for making “ad-homs”. This could open up a "pandora's box", and I suspect things could get out of hand if not nasty. In any event, shouldn't the Mods, if they approve of the general idea, be running the show here, rather than allowing one member to determine procedure on discipline and voting etc? Already we have seen an appeal to lay off taking any disciplinary action against two recently banned idiots who were engaging in verbal fights when it was obvious that they should have been been sanctioned ages ago.

    Third, to restrict applicants to so-called "senior members" (those with 100 or more posts) is discriminatory. In any event, some of the “senior members” have only been here little more than 5 minutes, having fired off a load of low calibre one-liners. There are others who do little more merely welcome new members and generally have nothing useful to say, while others create dozens of posts merely by voting in the completely vacuous, almost bozo-level composer games.

    Last, educational value. I do not think there would be any. It looks more like a potential farce. If anyone feels that they want to promote a particular composer by extolling his virtues there are already adequate opportunities to do this, e.g. either by writing something in the composer “guestbooks” or by writing an article in the Articles section, as did one or two former members.

  5. #5
    some guy
    Guest

    Default

    Well, all I know is if this thread ever takes off (as it were!), and if I were to participate, I would be Judy Dunaway.

  6. #6
    Assistant Administrator Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    S Jersey c. Philadelphia
    Posts
    2,888
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    I suspect things could get out of hand if not nasty.
    Thanks for your concern, which I expressed earlier. However, in light of...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    [t]here are others who do little more merely welcome new members and generally have nothing useful to say, while others create dozens of posts merely by voting in the completely vacuous, almost bozo-level composer games.
    you have shown, (dare I say once again) that you're definitely no stranger to nastiness...

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    211
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm not betting anything on Schoenberg.

  8. #8
    Senior Member PostMinimalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    836
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    I can think of several problems.
    And I have answers to all of them (assuming that you have stated them all below!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    One is that it may be completely out of character for some great composers to engage in the kind of debate you envisage. Take Schubert as an example. He wouldn't have rubbished other composers in order to save his own skin, as he was a modest, withdrawn kind of person who shunned the limelight. Another example is Schumann who, if caught on the right day, may have been first to volunteer to jump out of the balloon at any sign of trouble, given his mental issues.

    Indeed Schubert would not be the best bet, but hey it's a game. At the risk of sounding like Herzeleide, You're missing the point. You chose to play them in a 'role playing' setting - chosing a suicidal character is not a good move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    Secondly, adjudication. There seems to be an attempt to re-write the rules for making “ad-homs”. This could open up a "pandora's box", and I suspect things could get out of hand if not nasty. In any event, shouldn't the Mods, if they approve of the general idea, be running the show here, rather than allowing one member to determine procedure on discipline and voting etc? Already we have seen an appeal to lay off taking any disciplinary action against two recently banned idiots who were engaging in verbal fights when it was obvious that they should have been been sanctioned ages ago.
    No one is rewriting rules. Balloon debates have been around for a long time and the rules are simple.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_debate

    The judges will be you (plural).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    Third, to restrict applicants to so-called "senior members" (those with 100 or more posts) is discriminatory. In any event, some of the “senior members” have only been here little more than 5 minutes, having fired off a load of low calibre one-liners. There are others who do little more merely welcome new members and generally have nothing useful to say, while others create dozens of posts merely by voting in the completely vacuous, almost bozo-level composer games.
    I stated that senior members have less risk of abandoning the game or the forum altogether. It may seem attractive for a new member to join in but there is little guarentee that he will be around for long. If he sticks around then he can join in the next one (if he feels like it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm Less View Post
    Last, educational value. I do not think there would be any. It looks more like a potential farce. If anyone feels that they want to promote a particular composer by extolling his virtues there are already adequate opportunities to do this, e.g. either by writing something in the composer “guestbooks” or by writing an article in the Articles section, as did one or two former members.
    There is definite educational value in debating of any sort. If you feel you are better expressed writing about composers in the other sections of the forum, nobody is going to stop you. In fact go ahead and try it!

    I still think we can do this despite your isolated highly negative post.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by post-minimalist View Post

    I still think we can do this despite your isolated highly negative post.
    My comments were partly inspired by the fact I dislike cliquey groups on music boards. I was expressing a concern that the kind of thing you have in mind seems to exacerbate what in my opinion is already cliquey Forum by involve creating a two-tier membership system over which you appear to wish to set yourself up as "chief cook and bottle-washer" in terms of deciding who is admitted, what is discussed, and what constitutes a breach of rules on ad homs etc.

    As a further issue, I think that the kind of debate that might materialise in practice could involve largely trivial point-scoring on mere points of musical detail which could be unclear to many observers, and which could also unbalance the advantages of each composer candidate depending on their technical knowledge. The number of posts could possibly rival those on the vacuous threads on conductor rankings. I can also foresee attempted comedy sketches, and oh dear the mere thought of this potential buffoonry brings on an air-sickness feeling already.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mark Harwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Isle of Arran, Scotland.
    Posts
    284
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Lest Post-Minimalist's thread drift like a balloon driven by capricious gusts into the power-lines of strife, I propose to take the part of Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, whose music, intended primarily to delight, can often be played upon the light and readily portable instrument of the Gods, namely the guitar.
    "Music is a social act of communication among people, a gesture of friendship, the strongest there is."
    - Malcolm Arnold.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    9,729
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    This game seems all too morbid and bizarre to me.

  12. #12
    Andante
    Guest

    Default

    I am afraid of heights, so will keep both feet on terror fermer farmer firma ..............

  13. #13
    some guy
    Guest

    Default

    I'm just bummed that my Judy Dunaway joke has gone unremarked. Oh what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Nie!" to old ladies....

  14. #14
    Senior Member World Violist's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    3,335
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    I shall do the quasi-unthinkable and take on the role of Shostakovich.

    I just wrote a symphony about injustice of the people who would dare throw me off of this balloon...

    Or maybe...

    He was thrown off a balloon and I wasn't. Who was the luckier?

    ... MWAHAHAHAHA...
    You get a frog in your throat, you sound hoarse.

  15. #15
    Assistant Administrator Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    S Jersey c. Philadelphia
    Posts
    2,888
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by some guy View Post
    I'm just bummed that my Judy Dunaway joke has gone unremarked. Oh what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Nie!" to old ladies....
    I'm really sorry, some. I was actually getting ready for throw a public chuckle your way (yeah, it was a good one!), but I thought I'd take care of the cleanup in aisle 4 first...

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. End of a debate!
    By Daniel in forum Announcements
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Dec-15-2007, 00:05

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •