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Balloon Debate

14K views 82 replies 16 participants last post by  PostMinimalist 
#1 · (Edited)
One of the loveliest traditional types of Debate is what is called a'Balloon Debate'.

For those of you who don't know what this is I'll explain:

Imagine a hot-air balloon flying over the mountains with several well known historical characters on board. Then the balloon springs a leak! The only hope of survival is to lose ballast by throwing someone over board or they will all perish as the balloon crashes into the mountains. The characters are represented by speakers in a debate who must expound their achievment and also there fellow travellers shortcomings in order to justify there prolonged presence in the balloon. After each round there is a vote and someone is thrown over board. Then a new leak occurs and the process repeats until there is just one character left, at which point a clearing is sighted and the balloon lands safely with the winner on board.

I suggest that senior members could adopt their favourite composer as a character and, after a final number of passangers has been reached, each would be given a single post in which to justify there staying on board. After all the posts a week long vote will decide who takes the quick way down, and the balloon will continue on it's way until a new leak occurs.

Comments and discussion from non participants should be breif and limited to points made in the posts by the participants and not degenerate into a general discussion.

I say 'senior members' since there is less risk of abandoning the forum in mid debate. Sorry to any junior members who want to take part. May be there will be another such debate in the future at which time you will surely have become senior members.

Remember you will 'be' the composer, not just a representative for him, so no ad homs to posters themselves, but to the other composers this is permited.

I would suggest a first come first served system for the volunteers until we get say 8 or so really great composers into the balloon.

I would like to be in there and I will try to run this as impartially as possible. I will not adopt a character yet since I might deprive someone of a role. I will wait for five or so characters to declare participation and if my composer has not yet been taken I wll join in.

Declarations should look like this:

I will adopt the character of 'Composer A' and wish to participate in the TalkClassical Great Composers Balloon Debate.

So, who's up for an exciting trip across the Alps in a rickety, old, homemade, antique balloon in need of a service?

Now's your chance to show what you know (and possibly die for a cause)!
 
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#2 ·
One of the loveliest traditional types of Debate is what is called a'Balloon Debate'.
Okay...
I say 'senior members' since there is less risk of abandoning the forum in mid debate. Sorry to any junior members who want to take part. May be there will be another such debate in the future at which time you will surely have become senior members.
I understand the logic to this.
Remember you will 'be' the composer, not just a representative for him
...which brings up a question- how much "role-playing" is expected? One could "role-play" a composer, apply his arguments and make people more inclined to dismiss him.
no ad homs to posters themselves, but to the other composers this is permitted.
Not sure this is a good idea. It could get inflammatory pretty quickly. Sample example (shown for hypothetical reasons, and not IN ANY WAY indicative of my feelings): someone remarking to "Tchaikovsky,"... "you won't even give posterity the benefit of passing the genetic material that contributed to your abilities on to the next generation... so you're less use to us than someone who will."

In theory, I like the idea. It might need some work, though.
 
#3 ·
In balloon debates name-calling, although within the bounderies of the game, is not encouraged but if say, someone were playing the role of Birtwhistle and he decided to call Tchaikovsky 'gay' then that would have a detrimental effect on Birtwhistle's popuarity rather than Tchaikovsky's. Thus hastening his own exit and early demise.

By using the argument which you gave above though Birtwhistle would be considered quite within limits as trying to justify his presence in the balloon. i.e. his willingness to pass to next generations his musical DNA. (Not a very convincing argument though!)

I know what you mean, though and I would keep aclose check on this kind of thing.

Yes role playing is 100%.

Posts would look something like this:

'Well, I didn't see Mozart or Brahms getting up at 6 in the morning every Sunday to copy the parts for his Cantatas! I am so dilligent about my work it will cost me my eye-sight! My music is the foundation of the diatonic tonal system of all western music unlike mr Schoenberg over there! with such an imense contribution I should be allowed to stay in this damnable contraption for another round!'

JSB.


Only much longer!

What do you think?
 
#4 ·
I can think of several problems.

One is that it may be completely out of character for some great composers to engage in the kind of debate you envisage. Take Schubert as an example. He wouldn't have rubbished other composers in order to save his own skin, as he was a modest, withdrawn kind of person who shunned the limelight. Another example is Schumann who, if caught on the right day, may have been first to volunteer to jump out of the balloon at any sign of trouble, given his mental issues.

Secondly, adjudication. There seems to be an attempt to re-write the rules for making “ad-homs”. This could open up a "pandora's box", and I suspect things could get out of hand if not nasty. In any event, shouldn't the Mods, if they approve of the general idea, be running the show here, rather than allowing one member to determine procedure on discipline and voting etc? Already we have seen an appeal to lay off taking any disciplinary action against two recently banned idiots who were engaging in verbal fights when it was obvious that they should have been been sanctioned ages ago.

Third, to restrict applicants to so-called "senior members" (those with 100 or more posts) is discriminatory. In any event, some of the “senior members” have only been here little more than 5 minutes, having fired off a load of low calibre one-liners. There are others who do little more merely welcome new members and generally have nothing useful to say, while others create dozens of posts merely by voting in the completely vacuous, almost bozo-level composer games.

Last, educational value. I do not think there would be any. It looks more like a potential farce. If anyone feels that they want to promote a particular composer by extolling his virtues there are already adequate opportunities to do this, e.g. either by writing something in the composer “guestbooks” or by writing an article in the Articles section, as did one or two former members.
 
#6 ·
I suspect things could get out of hand if not nasty.
Thanks for your concern, which I expressed earlier. However, in light of...
[t]here are others who do little more merely welcome new members and generally have nothing useful to say, while others create dozens of posts merely by voting in the completely vacuous, almost bozo-level composer games.
you have shown, (dare I say once again) that you're definitely no stranger to nastiness...:rolleyes:
 
#10 ·
Lest Post-Minimalist's thread drift like a balloon driven by capricious gusts into the power-lines of strife, I propose to take the part of Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, whose music, intended primarily to delight, can often be played upon the light and readily portable instrument of the Gods, namely the guitar.
 
#16 ·
@ Gorm-less:
I have explained my reasons for my choices here already. Your insistant pesimism is thus noted. I reckon your are a guy who sees the glass not only half empty, but asks why some idiot has put something in the other empty half!

on a 'lighter' note.... (ballooning puns, who needs 'em?)

Declarations have already been made and I am delighted to announce that the first two tickets have been sold.

So far the following composers will be trying to get across the Alps:

1. Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco (played by Mark Harwood)
2. Dimitri Shostakovich (played by World Violinist)

Welcome aboard gentlemen. If you'd kindly be patient enough for the other passangers to appear...

F
 
#17 ·
Having a look around at the PMs and visitor messages not to mention the points made here on the thread itself, I will try to clarify the ad hom situation in balloon debates.

1. The major part of the defence should be made by emphasizing the contributions made to humanity of the contestants.
2. Comparisons can be made between contestants in order to emphasize aspects of ones work.
3. Inappropriate name calling will result in instant disqualification and the next round will begin without the offender.
4. Personal aspect of the contestants life which are brought up by the defendant may be reffered to by others contestants either positively or negatively. They do so at their own risk.

An example might shed some light...

If a contestant were to take the role of Gesualdo, he might write 2000 words defending his contribution to chromatic harmony. Another contestant (B) might point out, 'the fact that he murdered his wife and her lover indicates that he has no right to remain in the balloon since he might take it upon himself to start thowing others overboard'.
This is fine up till now. If contestant B then continues with, 'this scumbag trash should be thrown out at the next opportunity...'
He will be in violation of ad hom rules both in the Debate and on the Forum (which are actually the same).

The point being that ad homs are unwarrented personal attacks (name calling, scumbag etc.) whereas statement of fact (Gesualdo did in fact murder his wife) however damning is not ad hom.

By the same token you could start a thread about Peter Warlock's drinking problem and never discuss his music, but how relevent would that be on a classical music forum?
My advice then, is to stick to the works and contributions made by your character 99% of the time but use the others as contrast. Otherwise you could just go to the library, see who has the fattest biography and just throw the rest overboard!

If there are any doubts about this please ask.

And hey, it's just a game!
F
 
#23 ·
P-M: "I will be playing Giovanni Bottesini so I don't suspect I'm treading on any toes."

I shouldn't think you are. Thanks for the advance notice. We can bone up on Mr. B. and try to prepare for your moves. Is your choice due to hubris, akin to giving the rest of us a start? Anyway, good luck.
 
#25 ·
Hi there P-M. I heard about this thread idea of yours to have a balloon debate of "great" (sic) composers.

I see that you are struggling to find much interest among any of your friends. Not even Kuhlau can offer any help, which is a big shame. I trust you draw comfort from the fact that all your mates seem to think it's a great idea in principle, but unfortunately can't help because of other engagements. I can imagine how fed up you must be, as I guess being a composer you must have lots of free time on your hands to spend (oops, I almost said waste) on topics like this.

Well, I've turned up after a recent absence to say don't let this get you down, as I might be able to assist you. Even though I am not a "senior member", I reckon I could take on the role of Andrea Luchesi, who as you may know is reckoned to be the real writer of many of W A Mozart's late symphonic works, including No 41, Jupiter. See THIS thread for all the details in case you are among the few people on the Planet who have seen or heard about any of this before.

I am indeed convinced myself, having researched the matter ad nauseam, that you will find Andrea Luchesi to be a really interesting, charming, highly competent, composer who has not received his due. He will undoubtedly outshine the useless layabout contenders you have so far lined up for the debate.

A word of warning. I do stress that there is not a word of truth in any of the completely foul and highly mischievous counter-allegations put about on this Board that Andrea Luchesi was in fact a mere joke of a composer in THIS highly scurrilous thread by a long since departed former member.

For more startling revelations about the composing magnificence of Andrea Luchesi you will have wait until the debate begins. Kindly let me know if I am selected as I am champing at the bit and can hardly wait to get my track suit off.

Regards,

Andy
 
#26 · (Edited)
Hi there again P-M.

How's it going, then? I don't wish to put any undue pressure on you but it is now over two hours since I made my extremely generous offer to act out Andrea Luchesi for your game, and I still haven't heard any news. I'm a busy person and my time tends to get booked up pretty quickly, so to avoid disappointment I am going to have to put a guillotine on this of one more hour from now.

One big bit of news I must share with you. Since my return to this great Forum I have been inundated with requests from numerous people who want to be my "friend". I am so touched by this that I hardly know what to say. "Awe shucks" I keep saying to myself, "aren't people so nice".

The sad thing is that I'm extremely choosy about the company I keep. Now pleaaasee don't get me wrong. I'm sure all these kind folk are mostly really nice, genuine and friendly, the salt of the earth in fact, but I haven't a clue who they are. I can see that lots of them are just a bunch of kids, but unfortunately some of them reckon they're the "biz" when it comes to classical music and I couldn't put with all BS they tend to disgorge. It wouldn't be nice for them if I were to show them up, starkly revealing their ignorance, now would it?

So what I'm going to do, purely for the sake of maintaining good order on this splendid Board, is to decline the many dozens of very kind offers and accept none at all. Now I know this will come as huge disappointment to my fans but all I can say is that it's for the best. So sorry folks.

God, it's time I got down to finish off my next major work. It's still a big secret as I haven't yet been paid but I can tell you it's a big-un. They're gonna be talking about this one for years, provided no one pinches it like that ***@hole, Mozart, did several of my others. All I can say is that it's a long symphony with a choral piece bunged on the end. My wife's sister's boyfriends' mother-in-law reckons this novel feature lets it down badly, but I've told her to mind her own bl…ing business, as it's staying in over my dead body.

Must dash old fruit. Keep smiling and don't let the (obviously bogus) excuses from your "friends'" for not being able to participate in your game get you down too much. At least you have your nice little teddy to cling to. Ah so nice.

Be seeing yers soon hopefully.

Kindest Regards

Andy
 
#29 ·
That's a good question. I think there are signs which very quickly betray soboteurs. Most benign negativity is harmless and posters like Gorm-less above will not actively disprupt proceedings.

My plan is to put up a deadline for the initial defences after which there will follow discusion and a pole which will be open for a set period of time. This will result in one contestant being eliminated from the game and the process will then repeat.

It should be noted by the participating composers that they should be prepared to do a bit of research into their histories and will be asked to post more than one defence statement.

Round one is usually an introduction and an overview of their major achievements, round two can concentrate on certain high lights of their career, in round three they could explain their cintribution to the history of music, etc.

If this works it should be educational, entertaining and exciting for the participants.

FC
 
#30 ·
I can see that this is maybe beyond the scope of this forum so I will put a deadline for declarations to be given by 5 Apr.2009. If there have been fewer than 6 declarations by then I will close the thread, cancel the debate and never bring the subject up again.

If however there are at least 6 declarations then proceedings will begin on 7th Apr. 2009.

It's up to you.

FC
 
#31 ·
In the spirit (expressed by Hans Sachs in Act I of Meistersinger) of "Singt, dem Herrn Merker zum Verdruss!" (although, in this case, I ain't so sure about the "Herrn" part), let me lay stake to a composer somewhere between Castelnuovo-Tedesco and Shostakovich in renown, and stretch my acting chops by signing on for the role of Alberto Ginastera.
 
#33 ·
I have exchanged some thoughts with the admin concerning worries about this thread. They will be monitoring closely for ad hom offenders. They also would like me to stress that there is no real difference between junior members, members or senior members except for the number of posts they have placed on the forum. I stress that I am using this deliniation as an guide to how permenant a member is so there is less risk of losing a participant through his own loss of interest. Sorry if this riles some.
Now.... how about some more declarations, eh?

FC
 
#34 ·
At first, I had my reservations about getting involved in this idea. I have to say, though, that it's been fun to do a little "intersession" research into the life of Ginastera.

I appreciated Ginastera enough to mention him by name in post #1 for me, back nearly two years ago- when I was a forum newbie! Although I've had fondness for his music for a long time, now, I really did know entirely too little about his life. (I am working on that, though.:))

Whether I share what I've picked up here in this debate thread, or whether I bring it up in a place like "Composer Guestbooks" later on, I remain grateful that my curiosity took me in this direction...:cool:
 
#35 ·
Come on guys and gals! On Monday night I'll either start the debate or close the thread.
How about some more takers? A few weeks ago you couldn't stop members from exhaulting their heroes... Now you've got a legit chance to mouth off about them!
Time is running out....so

FC
 
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