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Thread: Better than Brahms? I ask you!

  1. #121
    Senior Member chromatic owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal the Drummer View Post
    ...and one to which you're obv.entitled, but can you give examples of works by Schumann which lead you to the (IMO startling) conclusion that he's "the greater contrapuntalist and his use of harmony and voice-leading is more refined and expressive"?
    The are way too many good examples but I find these particularly convincing:

    Waldszenen, op. 82
    Four fugues, op. 72
    Gesänge der Frühe, op. 133
    Variations in E♭ major, WoO 24

    I also had to think of a certain incredibly beautiful dissonance in Dichterliebe, but I happened to forget in which particular song.

    If you think my opinion is startling, why don't you give some examples of Brahms's music that you think are contradictionary? I would certainly appreciate that

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  3. #122
    Senior Member chromatic owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I would be interested in seeing that list of about twenty .
    In this case I will consider Bach, Bartók, Beethoven, Britten, Chopin, Dvořák, Franck, Gesualdo, Händel, Haydn, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Musorgsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Reger, Schubert, Schumann, Schnittke, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Strauss, Stravinsky, Tallis and Tchaikovsky to be greater than Brahms. (happened to be slightly more than twenty )

  4. #123
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    Not 'better' but I prefer Mahler!

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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by chromatic owl View Post
    The are way too many good examples but I find these particularly convincing:

    Waldszenen, op. 82
    Four fugues, op. 72
    Gesänge der Frühe, op. 133
    Variations in E♭ major, WoO 24

    I also had to think of a certain incredibly beautiful dissonance in Dichterliebe, but I happened to forget in which particular song.

    If you think my opinion is startling, why don't you give some examples of Brahms's music that you think are contradictionary? I would certainly appreciate that
    Fair question. In reply I'd refer you to two main sources: (a) in terms of voice-leading, Brahms' late piano music, the three Intermezzi Op.117 for example, and (b) in terms of counterpoint, Brahms' choral music with orchestra, principally but not only the Requiem. This is not to say that I dislike Schumann (I don't) or that his use of counterpoint and voice-leading is poor (it isn't), but it is to take issue with your statement that his music is "greater" or "more refined and expressive" than that of Brahms in these respects. Saying you enjoy it more is one thing. Making a comparative value judgment is another.

  7. #125
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chromatic owl View Post
    In this case I will consider Bach, Bartók, Beethoven, Britten, Chopin, Dvořák, Franck, Gesualdo, Händel, Haydn, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Musorgsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Reger, Schubert, Schumann, Schnittke, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Strauss, Stravinsky, Tallis and Tchaikovsky to be greater than Brahms. (happened to be slightly more than twenty )
    Thank you! Some might remark: Strange eccentricity of taste, but I? Never!

  8. #126
    Senior Member dillonp2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chromatic owl View Post
    In this case I will consider Bach, Bartók, Beethoven, Britten, Chopin, Dvořák, Franck, Gesualdo, Händel, Haydn, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Musorgsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Reger, Schubert, Schumann, Schnittke, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Strauss, Stravinsky, Tallis and Tchaikovsky to be greater than Brahms. (happened to be slightly more than twenty )
    No Vaughan Williams! Tallis would be ashamed.

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  10. #127
    Senior Member Chronochromie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I would be interested in seeing that list of about twenty .
    I can give you a list of about 50 if you're interested.

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  12. #128
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronochromie View Post
    I can give you a list of about 50 if you're interested.
    Please do! Inquiring minds, and all that. Just can't wait to see who's all on that list .

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  14. #129
    Senior Member poconoron's Avatar
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    Not surprising that Brahms didn't dabble in opera. He was overwhelmed by Mozart's Figaro and probably intimidated quite a bit:

    “In my opinion, each number in Figaro is a miracle,” composer Johannes Brahms said of Mozart’s great opera a century after its creation. “It is totally beyond me how anyone could create anything so perfect; nothing like it was ever done again, not even by Beethoven.”

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  16. #130
    Senior Member chromatic owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal the Drummer View Post
    Fair question. In reply I'd refer you to two main sources: (a) in terms of voice-leading, Brahms' late piano music, the three Intermezzi Op.117 for example, and (b) in terms of counterpoint, Brahms' choral music with orchestra, principally but not only the Requiem. This is not to say that I dislike Schumann (I don't) or that his use of counterpoint and voice-leading is poor (it isn't), but it is to take issue with your statement that his music is "greater" or "more refined and expressive" than that of Brahms in these respects. Saying you enjoy it more is one thing. Making a comparative value judgment is another.
    Thank you I am more or less familiar with the Intermezzi, not so the Requiem, I will have to check it out sometime. And yes, I definitely find Schumann's music to be of higher value. However, I cannot claim that my opinion is the highly objective result of thorough analysis.

  17. #131
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Thank you! Some might remark: Strange eccentricity of taste, but I? Never!
    Then let me.

    <Ahem> Franck? Franck?? Franck???

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  19. #132
    Senior Member chromatic owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chromatic owl View Post
    why don't you give some examples of Brahms's music that you think are contradictionary?
    And sorry about that strange spelling mistake... I wonder what types of words there are in a contradictionary?

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  21. #133
    Senior Member chromatic owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Then let me.

    <Ahem> Franck? Franck?? Franck???
    What's wrong?

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  23. #134
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chromatic owl View Post
    What's wrong?
    Franckly, Franck. ..........

  24. #135
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    César Franck (i have it on highest authority) would often stand before a mirror, compose himself, and say "Let's be...Brahms!"

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