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Wagner opera on disc.......Tannhauser

20K views 84 replies 22 participants last post by  SixFootScowl 
#1 ·
Two parts to this one. :)

What's your favorite recording?

And do you prefer the original or Pars revision?
:tiphat:
 
#3 ·
Solti. Paris. But there are some other likely candidates.:lol:
 
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#6 · (Edited)
I like the wild bacchanale to set the lustful mood for venusburg, so Paris version for me..........




61 Bayreuth - Sawallisch

Grace Bumbry a natural fit for Venus while also being becoming first afro-american to sing Bayreuth, Vicky DLA a rare wagner role but another inspired match as Elisabeth......the men all do a great job and latest Orfeo CD release ups the game a bit

 
#7 ·



61 Bayreuth - Sawallisch

Bumbry a natural for Venus while also being becoming first afro-american to sing Bayreuth, Vicky DLA a rare wagner role but another inspired match as Elisabeth......the men all do a great job and latest Orfeo CD release ups the game a bit

The 1961 Bayreuth is probably my favorite, too. The 1962 is in much better sound, but it has Silja instead of VdlA.

In theory, I prefer the Paris version, but I don't really like either recording. The Sinopoli is the better of the two, IMO; Christa Ludwig aside, the Solti is one of his more poorly cast Wagner recordings.

And every Wagner collection needs a recording with Melchior in the title role. The role is a killer, and only Melchior really does it justice among the complete recordings.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Anyone prefer the original version like me?

I can't wait for the Venusburg music to end.:)

Which one do you like?
 
#75 ·
Oh no, it's Paris for me! I like Wagner best in his orchestral passages (for the most part, there are notable exceptions) But I'll take the extra Venusburg music please! :D

No favored recording as I've only heard one; the Sinopli with Domingo in the title role. I'll branch out this year since my husband just got use Spotify premium for the year. I have Haitink queued up on my phone for when I finish Parsifal
 
#41 · (Edited)
Actually morals are usually pretty simplistic. It's called right and wrong and if he found it wrong he was right not to sing it.
Of course he was right to do whatever he wanted to do... but he was priggish, though he probably felt he was just being a good Christian.

Not singing Tannhauser was Vickers' personal preference. He didn't like the character or the opera. But he never understood Wagner. He saw the work as an attack on Christianity. What it really is is an attack on hypocrisy and...priggishness! Tannhauser is a character torn between the repressiveness of a hypocritical, medieval Christian culture - nothing surprising or unhistorical there - and his own need to express his full humanity, as represented by his sensual side. Elisabeth, a healthy young woman who, though part of that culture, is not hypocritical, can love Tannhauser and defend him, and ultimately save his soul through her own love and death, canceling out the damnation pronounced by the Pope.

It's actually very Christian, though anti-ecclesiastical. Vickers didn't get it.
 
#42 ·
Of course he was right to do whatever he wanted to do... but he was priggish, though he probably felt he was just being a good Christian.

Not singing Tannhauser was Vickers' personal preference. He didn't like the character or the opera. But he never understood Wagner. He saw the work as an attack on Christianity. What it really is is an attack on hypocrisy and...priggishness! Tannhauser is a character torn between the repressiveness of a hypocritical, medieval Christian culture - nothing surprising or unhistorical there - and his own need to express his full humanity, as represented by his sensual side. Elisabeth, a healthy young woman who, though part of that culture, is not hypocritical, can love Tannhauser and defend him, and ultimately save his soul through her own love and death, canceling out the damnation pronounced by the Pope.

It's actually very Christian, though anti-ecclesiastical. Vickers didn't get it.
To say the opera is Christian is completely misunderstand Christianity, which of course Wagner did.
 
#16 ·
Kollo may not be to everyone's taste but compared to what's available now he is a veritable giant!
 
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#21 ·
Not too keen on R D Smith. Much prefer Kollo I'm afraid
 
#24 · (Edited)
You might prefer him but I think it's a pretty huge exaggeration to say that Kollo is a giant compared to today's performers. I'm no big fan of Smith fan either but compared to Kollo's fundamentally ugly and strained singing in the Solti Tannhauser? I'll take Smith. At least he sings instead of growls, and the strain is audible even in Kollo's early years.

ETA - Seiffert's getting on in years but a decade ago, I'd have picked his Tannhauser over Kollo's even more easily actually.
 
#23 ·


Odd man out again.:)
Since I prefer the Dresden version, i can't wait for the Venusburg music to end,
i like this one.
Well conducted and the voices are fine with me.
:)
 
#26 ·
I like this one too, but I wish this caught Windgassen a few years earlier, and I'm not fond of Tannhausers that casts the same singer for both Venus and Elisabeth, as much as I enjoy listening to Nilsson sing anything. The energy flags at times too, and I wasn't super surprised after listening to this a few times to learn that conducting wasn't Gerdes' usual gig.

Another recommendable but flawed recording of the Dresden version that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Konwitschny/Hopf/Grummer/Schech recording, some very strong and not so strong performances.

Organism Font Horse Art History


It's a little late in the day for Grummer but she's a superb Elisabeth, perhaps the best on record. Hopf is big but ungainly and hamfisted but is more tolerable than usual mainly because of the weakness of the recorded competition. Schech is pretty wavery and unsensual as Venus though, but DFD has one of his most successful Wagner outings as Wolfram here while he was still in finer voice and less mannered than later in the Gerdes. Luxury casting of Wunderlich as Walther, excellent.

As much as I turned up my nose at this recording because of Hopf's starring role initially, this recording has grown on me a fair amount.
 
#31 ·
Picked this up recently and listened to it a few times:

Musical instrument Black Entertainment Music Font


It's good! I generally don't like Cluytens' way with Wagner (or really much of anything) so I've avoided this set until now. I do think he's a bit of a weak link here--there's times when the momentum flags and it's less energetic than it could be, but he's not actively annoying here the way he is for me with his Meistersinger or Hollander. And the choral work here is really excellent.

The cast is very good. Windgassen has more vigor and sap than in his later recordings. I still wish he performed the role with a little more gesang and a little less sprech, but I think this is one of the better performances of the title role on record. Brouwenstijn is a very impressive Elisabeth, and Wilfert is a decent Venus. I again found myself wondering why Brouwenstijn didn't record a lot more Wagner, she's as good here as in her performances as Sieglinde. I'd have loved to have heard her as Elsa.

DFD is absolutely wonderful as Wolfram, easily bettering his performance on the Gerdes, on par or better than his performance in the Konwitschny. Even Greindl was able to tone down his essentially villainous sound for this recording so his Landraf doesn't sound like the heavy, and the small roles are well filled here--Traxel's a perfectly decent Walt, and the boy they got to do the shepherd pulls it off very creditably.

A very solid recording overall. I don't think it knocks off the Sinopoli in my affections but it's a recording I think I'll be listening to a lot over the next few months.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Wagner Challenge update - Favourite STEREO Tannhäuser



Wagner
TANNHÄUSER WWV 70, PARIS VERSION I - DRESDEN VERSION II-III
Peter Seiffert
Thomas Hampson
Jane Eaglen
Waltraud Meier
Gunnar Gudbjörnsson
Hanno Müller-Brachmann
Stephan Rügamer
Alfred Reiter
René Pape
Dorothea Röschmann

Chor der Deutschen Staatsoper Berlin
Staatskapelle Berlin
Daniel Barenboim
Warner Classics (2001/2012 Reissue Edition)




Wagner
TANNHÄUSER WWV 70, PARIS VERSION
René Kollo
Victor Braun
Helga Dernesch
Christa Ludwig
Werner Hollweg
Kurt Equiluz
Manfred Jungwirth
Norman Bailey
Hans Sotin

Wiener Sängerknaben
Wiener Staatsopernchor
Wiener Philharmoniker
Georg Solti
Decca (1971/1985 Reissue Edition)




Wagner
TANNHÄUSER WWV 70, DRESDEN VERSION
Hans Hopf
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
Elisabeth Grümmer
Marianne Schech
Fritz Wunderlich
Rudolf Gonszar
Gerhard Unger
Gottlob Frick
Lisa Otto

Chor der Berliner Staatsoper
Staatskapelle Berlin
Franz Konwitschny
Warner Classics (1960/2011 Reissue Edition)


For stereo Tannhäusers, I'm more in the crowd. I honestly do not care if there is a Bachanale or not. So I don't bother whether it is Paris or Dresden. But I think that, besides singing quality, the Barenboim recording is my favourite mixed version, using the Paris Act I (basically all the Paris version) without the Bachanale, and then all Dresden.

Of the Dresden Recordings, I would encourage not to buy the scam of Otto Gerdes, with an unbelievable cast on paper of which all are past their prime or symply the dynamics are terrible. Sotin sings better two years later than in this one. I put a C- but it's very close to an F. The other dull recording is the Haitink for Warner Classics, despite the excellent performance of Lucia Popp and the quite inmmature and histrionic Venus by Waltraud Meier.

Sawallisch 62 and Sinopoli are very close. I think Sinopoli offers a better cast and the conducting is not dull at all, but delicate. I think this time Studer does not work quite well as Elisabeth, and her duet with Domingo sounds tired by both parts. Salminen is so soulful I want a t-shirt with his face. The Sawallisch 62 in Bayreuth is in the end a recording I respect, for Bumbry, Wächter and Silja. Windgassen sounds tired in Act II.

Of these three shortlisted, I chose Konwitschny for the best conducting overall (Solti and Barenboim exceed the brass balance) and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau as Wolfram. The rest of the cast is also great. My Dresden choice.

For the "Paris" and Paris, it's very even between the spectacular Barenboim (to say someone, he is not one to congratulate here IMO) and the Decca-perfection of Solti. I'll put it this way:

Seiffert/Eaglen/Meier > Kollo/Dernesch/Ludwig
Hampson/Pape < Braun/Sotin

That is why Barenboim SKB is my Stereo winner.



Oops, I forgot to add some Jones.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Tut, tut, boys. No religion please. Stick to the OP. Keep the religious debate for the appropriate forum or PMs or I'll be forced to bring up my paganism. :lol:
 
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#53 ·
Wagner Challenge update - Favourite MONO Tannhäuser

Three winners:
All include the Paris Bacchanal



Wagner
TANNHÄUSER WWV 70, DRESDEN VERSION Live recording
Wolfgang Windgassen
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
Victoria de los Ángeles
Grace Bumbry
Gerhard Stolze
Franz Crass
Georg Paskuda
Theo Adam
Josef Greindl
Else-Margrete Gardelli

Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
Wolfgang Sawallisch
Orfeo/MYTO (1961, Remastered Edition)




Wagner
TANNHÄUSER WWV 70, DRESDEN VERSION Live recording
Wolfgang Windgassen
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
Gré Brouwenstijn
Hertha Wilfert
Josef Traxel
Toni Blackenheim
Gerhard Stolze
Alfons Herwig
Josef Greindl
Volker Horn

Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
André Cluytens
Orfeo/Walhall (1955, Remastered Edition)




Wagner
TANNHÄUSER WWV 70, DRESDEN VERSION Live recording
Lauritz Melchior
Herbert Janssen
Kirsten Flagstad
Kerstin Thorborg
John Dudley
Mark Harrell
Emery Darcy
John Gurney
Emanuel List
Maxine Stellman

Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and Chorus
Erich Leinsdorf
MYTO (1941/2010 Remastered Edition)


There were not many recordings to test, so I'm quite happy with the results. The one that left me very cold was the Bayreuth Keilberth in 1954. Brouwenstijn is an excellent Elisabeth, but Ramón Vinay did not impress me with his bassy title character (plus, the cue). The only things that needed to change were the conductor and Tannhäuser. The Karajan Vienna recording mostly lacked a good male cast, including a dreary Beirer. Ludwig's Venus and the Wiener Staatsoper under Karajan were the ones to applaud here.

There are three winners, one tougher, another which is very good for the age and an overall winner that can perfectly confront Solti or Barenboim, just a pity that it wasn't recorded in stereo.

The third best is an old Metropolitan Broadcast conducted by Erich Leinsdorf in 1941. The main stars are Flagstad's Elisabeth (quite Flagstady unfortunately, and not really living up to her legend) and Melchior's Tannhäuser (very Melchiory too, fascinating, at his peak). It depends on your taste for these two. Janssen's Wolfram and Thorborg's Venus are in good shape compared to them. The only issue is Melchior being out of tempo in the Venusberg song in the constest, rushed. The sound is ok.

The second best and one that could stand as a first choice, is the Cluytens recording from Bayreuth 1955 (consider the same comparison Orfeo/Walhall/MYTO: Orfeo has no noise floor). Here you will find Windgassen's Tannhäuser in great voice, probably your favourite because it is very different to 61 and 62, and of course 68. He is more lightweight. Do not overlook Cluytens' good conducting. The whole cast is perfect in Act I, really competitive compared to stereo recordings. Wilfert and Brouwenstijn improve a lot their 1954 performances. And finally, nothing can prepare you to Fischer-Dieskau's Wolfram. No one will ever match him. That's all I can say. Excellent cast, but the interpretation does not reach the peaks of the following Sawallisch premiere in 1961:

The Sawallisch first Tannhäuser in 1961 is the total revolution and the testament of Bayreuth in the early 60s with an unsurpassable, spotless cast. Windgassen in 61 starts to break his character adding a more dramatic, bassier voice that reveals a whole new different persona. He would pay for it in the dull commercial recording one year later, unfortunately. Grace Bumbry and Victoria de los Ángeles are in Meier/Studer levels of power and deliver their best to develop the drama with Windgassen. And the song contest scene is spotless with Windgassen and DFD, who is still as good as in 1954 and it's a shame that he could not attend more Bayreuth performances from so on. This recording is my favourite mono Tannhäuser and on par with Barenboim.


4th: Karajan WStO 63
5th: Keilberth BFO 54

Open question: why did Philips record the 62 Tannhäuser instead of 61? Was it a contract issue about VDLA and DFD?
 
#55 ·
I already know, wkasimer. Thank you. In Spotify it sounds beautifully, but I can stand the noise floor in Myto, Andromeda and Walhall. That's why I put their pictures and those are the editions I want to purchase (so I can save up and buy even more recordings)
 
#56 · (Edited)
I've finished the Sinopoli Tannhäuser. Pretty good from an orchestral point of view. Well sung in the main but I'm not entirely convinced by Domingo. His singing is beautifully musical but Tannhäuser himself needs more than just good singing. He just lacks something, and I hesitate to say this, heroic. Baltsa is fine as Venus as is Studer as Elisabeth if a little lightweight. Schmidt has too much vibrato going on for my personal taste and Salminen sounds like, well, Salminen! The real star of the show is Sinopoli who gets some great sonic balances from the orchestra and it's not too badly recorded for DG in the 80's.
 
#57 ·
I've finished the Sinopoli Tannhäuser. Pretty good from an orchestral point of view. Well sung in the main but I'm not entirely convinced by Domingo. His singing is beautifully musical but Tannhäuser himself needs more than just good singing. He just lacks something, and I hesitate to say this, heroic.
What he lacks is any emotional connection with the role. He sings this role the same way he sings everything - the notes are there, and he sings fairly musically, but I hear absolutely nothing interpretively.
 
#58 ·
Tannhauser is the Wagnerian opera which I return to the least often. * but this week I did play the '62 Sawallisch/Windgassen/Silja recording from Bayreuth. Mention has been made about Jon Vickers as priggish, personally I think that describes everyone at the Wartburg. They call that a song contest?

* Not that Lohengrin, Tristan, Parsifal and Siegried are that much further ahead ... or even act 2 of Walkure :D
 
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