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Thread: For love of the Baroque...

  1. #166
    Senior Member Ingélou's Avatar
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    One of the loveliest examples of Scottish baroque available on YouTube. I have a sheet music book called Four Scottish Sonatas which contains this, and hope to have a crack at it next year in my fiddle lessons! I may not get anywhere, but the scenery on the ride will be stunning!



    James Oswald, Hawthorn Sonata - by Shane Lestideau and the Evergreen Ensemble.
    Last edited by Ingélou; Dec-04-2017 at 11:42.
    ~ Mollie ~
    My fiddle my joy.

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  3. #167
    Senior Member Ingélou's Avatar
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    Finally, as an example of Scottish baroque-folk crossover with a big dollop of groove, here's my fiddle teacher taking time off from HIP strictness!

    (From a Norwich Baroque concert - The Earl of Kellie's Reel; James O'Toole violinist.)



    (I must confess that, as a folk-and-baroque purist, I prefer the early stages of this video. Fiddle Guru has given me a lovely mp3 of him playing it 'straight' which I love to play along with. )
    Last edited by Ingélou; Dec-04-2017 at 12:45.
    ~ Mollie ~
    My fiddle my joy.

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  5. #168
    Sr. Moderator Taggart's Avatar
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    I've added a guestbook on William McGibbon - William McGibbon (1690 - 1756)
    Music begins where words leave off. Music expresses the inexpressible.

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  7. #169
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    You've set me thinking about the intersection of folk and baroque today Ingelou, something I hadn't considered before. As my interest lies in English folk music I started thinking about John Playford (which folkie can say they've never been to a Playford dance?) and whether he is a baroque composer. My thoughts are tempered by the difficulty in dating folk tunes, of course, and his Dancing Master is a compilation of earlier tunes/melodies rather than original compositions. Are Morris tunes baroque? (I really love William and Nancy and that has quite a baroque feel especially as played the Full English band) It turns out that Playford was indeed a composer as well as a compiler and his Division Violin sounds like something worth exploring. He also seems to have written some harpsichord and music for Psalms. I think Playford is in need of a serious exploration.

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  9. #170
    Sr. Moderator Taggart's Avatar
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    Fascinating post @ classical yorkist I did a little research and this is what I've come up with:

    The Division Violin - IMSLP - http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Division_V...yford%2C_John) -is part of a long tradition of divisions in English music. Many of the variations in the Fitzwilliam virginal book are based on divisions. Playford was cashing in on a tradition of divisions upon the viol based on music by Eccles, William Lawes, John Jenkins and Christopher Simpson. Playford had published Simpson's Division Viol in 1659. When Charles II returned in 1660, he brought the French idea of a Violin Orchestra with him. Playford with John Bannister produced a Division Violin to take advantage of the change in taste.

    Walsh, Playford's successor (and Handel's publisher) followed the trend with the Division Flute in 1706/1708. The wiki article gives details of all the pieces.

    Morris probably pre-dates the baroque - Kemp danced a jig - a Morris figure not the 6/8 tune - from London to Norwich (where Playford came from!). The expression gigue really means a hop.
    Last edited by Taggart; Dec-04-2017 at 21:18.
    Music begins where words leave off. Music expresses the inexpressible.

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  11. #171
    Senior Member Dirge's Avatar
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    Fans of Monteverdi’s Vespro della beata Vergine (1610) who are looking to delve further into his later sacred music should explore the motley assortment of first-rate leftovers known as Selva morale e spirituale (1640/41) and the smaller but no less motley Missae et Psalmi (1650). Selva morale was published only a few years before Monteverdi’s death and comprises 40 or so works that yield about four hours of music; Missae et Psalmi was published posthumously and comprises 15 works that yield about two hours of music. The unwieldiness of these two bulky and diverse collections keeps them from achieving anything like the popularity of the more focused and marketable Vespers, but a number of the individual works are about the equal of anything in the Vespers. Highlights include Beatus vir I, Gloria a 7, and Confitebor (Terzo alla francese) [from Selva morale] and Laetatus sum a 6 [from Missae et Psalmi]. There are a fair number of recordings of Selva morale to be had, not so many of Missae et Psalmi; most are selections, but a few are more or less complete surveys. My favorite set comes from the early ’80s:

    Claudio MONTEVERDI: Selva morale e spirituale; Missae et Psalmi
    :: Bernius/Kammerchor Stuttgart, Barockensemble Stuttgart [Astoria 90032/34]

    This 3-CD Astoria set brings together some earlier FSM releases and comprises about two thirds of Selva morale and half of Missae et Psalmi. It features a small-to-medium sized chorus and period-instrument ensemble, both of which sound just the right size to my ears. Bernius sets the agenda but has the confidence and good sense to let his savvy team carry it out with minimal intervention on his part. Consequently, there’s a strong sense of involvement and interaction, of give and take, among the performers, and they respond enthusiastically with vital, expressive singing and playing that is chock-full of character—and there’s nothing self-consciously “authentic” about any of it: it’s simply top-notch music-making that happens to be carried out on period instruments and with a sensible regard for period practices. It should be noted, however, that the playing/singing has a certain rustic character about it, with heavyish (not grape-stomping heavy or anything like that, but ever so slightly heavier than usual in this fare) rhythms and a slightly earthy/roughhewn sonic finish. As much as I and my goatherd friends like it, the more urbane and aristocratic listeners among you may be put off by these bucolic tendencies and insist upon performances that are, shall we say, more commensurate with your breeding and station in life.

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  13. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taggart View Post
    Fascinating post @ classical yorkist I did a little research and this is what I've come up with:

    The Division Violin - IMSLP - http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Division_V...yford%2C_John) -is part of a long tradition of divisions in English music. Many of the variations in the Fitzwilliam virginal book are based on divisions. Playford was cashing in on a tradition of divisions upon the viol based on music by Eccles, William Lawes, John Jenkins and Christopher Simpson. Playford had published Simpson's Division Viol in 1659. When Charles II returned in 1660, he brought the French idea of a Violin Orchestra with him. Playford with John Bannister produced a Division Violin to take advantage of the change in taste.

    Walsh, Playford's successor (and Handel's publisher) followed the trend with the Division Flute in 1706/1708. The wiki article gives details of all the pieces.

    Morris probably pre-dates the baroque - Kemp danced a jig - a Morris figure not the 6/8 tune - from London to Norwich (where Playford came from!). The expression gigue really means a hop.
    Gosh I'm quite excited by this line of enquiry. I've heard some Lawes and Jenkins and they're very good but I wonder why Playford is not mentioned as an English baroque composer? I've listened to some small snippets of his Division Violin on YouTube this morning and I'm impressed. Sadly, I cannot seem to find comprehensive recordings of his music, looking through my collection I have the excellent Nobody's Jig CD and the Ashley Hutchings/John Kirkpatrick recordings but I find I'm hungry for some complete works.

    Re. Morris dancing, I was merely thinking aloud and particularly musing on the tunes and from whence they may date rather than the tradition as a whole.

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  15. #173
    Senior Member josquindesprez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirge View Post
    Fans of Monteverdi’s Vespro della beata Vergine (1610) who are looking to delve further into his later sacred music should explore the motley assortment of first-rate leftovers known as Selva morale e spirituale (1640/41) and the smaller but no less motley Missae et Psalmi (1650).
    Agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirge View Post
    My favorite set comes from the early ’80s:

    Claudio MONTEVERDI: Selva morale e spirituale; Missae et Psalmi
    :: Bernius/Kammerchor Stuttgart, Barockensemble Stuttgart [Astoria 90032/34]
    I haven't heard that one, but I've found the Cantus Köln recording to be quite enjoyable:

    Selva Morale E Spirituale.jpg

    I'd also recommend (again) for anyone who likes the Monteverdi Vespers to give the Francesco Cavalli Vespero della Beata Vergine Maria a turn. There are clear echoes of Monteverdi in that one, logical given that Cavalli was Monteverdi's student.

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  17. #174
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
    I've lost touch with the Baroque recently. Still regularly listen to the WTC, but apart from that, it's just not interesting me at the moment in the same way as later music

    I'm going to stick on the Monteverdi Vespers and see if that has any effect.
    Be sure to listen to the Gardiner version (the one in post #145 of this thread). I think its substantially better than other versions I've heard, and I would like to extend thanks to classical Yorkist for posting it.

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  19. #175
    Senior Member Ariasexta's Avatar
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    Cavalli is more antiquated than Monteverdi in sacred music, but influence is still obviously in his declamatory motet settings. Monteverdi`s seriously looking toward the 1650s in his sacred music even his 1610 vesper is reminiscent of middle 17th century cantatas. This is what makes Monteverdi`s music interesting. Selva Morale is a set of very fine motets, he employs some technics of secular music into the sacred texts but structurally conservative, thus producing freer melody lines than his contemporaries. I think that Monteverdi himself almost invented sacred cantata genre, but he inspired his pupils in the new genre in stead. As far as I remember, it was his pupil Alessandro Grandi who invented the canata genre.
    Last edited by Ariasexta; Dec-08-2017 at 17:53.

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  21. #176
    Senior Member Ingélou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classical yorkist View Post
    This is worth watching:
    I am listening to this now, and it is sublime.
    ~ Mollie ~
    My fiddle my joy.

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  23. #177
    Senior Member Dirge's Avatar
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    François COUPERIN: Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos from «Pièces de clavecin, livre III, 13e ordre» (1722)
    :: Sokolov [Astrée, live ’01]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKL_XZ9BMb0 (Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos begins at about 11'07" and ends at about 19'43"; there are timing links to the various sections in the first comment below the video.)

    While decidedly on the beaten path in the harpsichord world, Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos is slightly off the beaten path in the piano world. I’m not a particular fan of Couperin or of Sokolov, so I like this recording more than I ought to. The piece is vividly described here by Angela Hewitt:

    «After this relatively innocent beginning, we turn to high drama with the arrival of Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos. It is a miniature theme and variations using the same Folia bass as Les Folies d’Espagne. Each variation depicts a character arriving at a masked ball. Philippe d’Orléans frequently hosted such events that became known for their scandal. In the one portrayed here we have Virginity arriving in an invisible cloak (or domino). Then appears Modesty in pink, followed by Ardour in a flesh-coloured cloak. Hope comes next, sporting green, followed by Fidelity in blue. And after Fidelity? Perserverance arrives in flaxen grey, with Languor in purple not far behind. Coquetry livens things up a bit wearing different colours (wonderfully portrayed by the use of three different time signatures in the first four bars). The Old Roués and Pensioned-off Courtesans stumble in, wearing crimson and verdigris. Then come the benevolent Cuckolds in yellow, accompanied by a cuckoo-like musical motif. Silent Jealousy in Moorish grey takes to the bottom of the keyboard in a very sinister variation. The last character to arrive is Frenzy or Despair—in black. As Wilfrid Mellers writes: “The work is a microcosm of Couperin’s art, its tragic passion, its witty urbanity, its sensuous charm.”»

    Although I’m no fan of the harpsichord, I can well understand those listeners who prefer Couperin played on that vile instrument, as Couperin’s harpsichord music is so inherently harpsichordish that it never quite naturally translates to the piano. I suspect that the music also gains from being played on an instrument tuned as it would have been in Couperin’s day to some unequal temperament scheme that allows for key color. Sokolov violates all of this by playing a modernly tuned modern piano in a manner that suggests that he too is no fan of the harpsichord, but I favor his account nonetheless.

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  25. #178
    Senior Member Ariasexta's Avatar
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    François COUPERIN: Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos from «Pièces de clavecin, livre III, 13e ordre» (1722)
    :: Sokolov [Astrée, live ’01
    ]

    Playing any baroque music on piano or fortepiano is no longer baroque, but a romanticization. I will never listen to classical music with piano in it. Only in rock music, piano is allowed, there are some rock stars can write nice music, better than most modernist academic composers I suppose. For example this one:https://www.bilibili.com/video/av169...16320703462884
    Last edited by Ariasexta; Dec-16-2017 at 08:32.

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  27. #179
    Senior Member Ingélou's Avatar
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    Ah well, this thread is celebrating baroque music, whether played 'HIP' (as my fiddle teacher does) or not (as I grew up with). Whatever is beautiful - whatever TC members like.

    For myself, I just love the harpsichord sound and don't generally enjoy baroque music as much when it's played on the piano. However, there are exceptions - I remember when Taggart learned a gorgeous coranto by Bach and was playing it on our home piano. I loved it.

    Thank you for all the posts so far. Even lovers of Glenn Gould's playing of Bach (like my husband) are welcome!
    Last edited by Ingélou; Dec-16-2017 at 09:27.
    ~ Mollie ~
    My fiddle my joy.

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  29. #180
    Senior Member Ingélou's Avatar
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    This is 'renaissance' rather than 'baroque', but I am posting it in honour of my beloved mother who died yesterday, aged 97, in her nearby care home. She had six children, and was always 'there for us'.
    Let's hear it for mothers everywhere.

    Last edited by Ingélou; Dec-16-2017 at 09:26.
    ~ Mollie ~
    My fiddle my joy.

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