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Wagner on disc...Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg

57K views 391 replies 30 participants last post by  Viardot 
#1 ·
So the other opera Wagner composed during his break from the Ring was Meistersinger. It was first performed in Munich in 1868 and was an immediate success. It is Wagner's only "comedy".
It is full of beautiful tunes, wonderful characters and great orchestral passages.

There are many recordings of the opera. As many times as I've heard it (and that's a lot:)), I always discover more musical gems.
I love this opera. The townspeople, the music, the melodies and ensembles never cease to instill a sense of wonder and magic in me.

So what's your choice for this wonder full opera?
 
#2 · (Edited)
This one's easier than the other operas.

Publication Font Poster Event Photo caption
Glasses Human Happy Font People in nature


Both are strongly cast from top to bottom, which isn't something that I can say about any of the other recordings, all of which have one or more principals whom I consider liabilities. I like Solti's cast a bit better (particularly Heppner), but prefer Kubelik's conducting.

Honorable mention goes to Sawallisch (who also has Heppner, in even better voice, but a weakish Sachs in Weikl), Karajan 2 (mostly for Helen Donath's radiant Eva and the Dresden Staatskapelle), and Solti's earlier recording (only for Norman Bailey's Sachs). I also have a fondness for the 1960 Bayreuth performance with Knappertsbusch, Greindl (as Sachs), Grummer, and Windgassen.
 
#3 ·
This one's easier than the other operas.

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Both are strongly cast from top to bottom, which isn't something that I can say about any of the other recordings, all of which have one or more principals whom I consider liabilities. I like Solti's cast a bit better (particularly Heppner), but prefer Kubelik's conducting.

Honorable mention goes to Sawallisch (who also has Heppner, in even better voice, but a weakish Sachs in Weikl), Karajan 2 (mostly for Helen Donath's radiant Eva and the Dresden Staatskapelle), and Solti's earlier recording (only for Norman Bailey's Sachs). I also have a fondness for the 1960 Bayreuth performance with Knappertsbusch, Greindl (as Sachs), Grummer, and Windgassen.
LOVE those two!!!
But I'll add my three cents later :)
 
#4 · (Edited)


56 Kempe has long been a favorite with Grummer as Eva (best ever?) and Rudolph Schock as Walther, some will say Schock is really a glorified operetta singer but he was recruited by wagners specifically for this part, golden lyric voice that has great beauty wonderful romantic chemistry with Eva.......what about Sachsy, Frantz is not your conventional choice I think he does better than I expected, but not the most humane or elegant of character still he plays the wise sage well enough to make this great overall

Kempe has wonderful score and Pristine XR raiser bar for sound quality.......

I also have a fondness for the 1960 Bayreuth performance with Knappertsbusch, Greindl (as Sachs), Grummer, and Windgassen.
I really like that one also

 
#8 ·
I don't know which one I like better, Solti 2 or the Kubelik.
The singers over all favor Kubelik and probably the conducting as well.
But Solti is good too and has absolutely wonderful, rich sound
that wows me every time I listen.
And it's the end of the Solti that gives me the chills.



Against popular opinion I add this Jochum set.
I guess if you like it or not depends on how you react to DFD as Sachs and Domiingo as Walther.
Unconventional casting it is.
I like DFD's characterization even though he's light for the part and I think
Domingo's Prize song is absolutely beautiful.
Slings and arrows again?:)

So for me it Solti and Kubelik, neck a neck..
Jochum.
:)
 
#12 · (Edited)


Against popular opinion I add this Jochum set.
I guess if you like it or not depends on how you react to DFD as Sachs and Domiingo as Walther.
Unconventional casting it is.
I like DFD's characterization even though he's light for the part and I think
Domingo's Prize song is absolutely beautiful.
Slings and arrows again?:)
Not a winner for me.

Sachs and Eva are the two characters I love most in Meistersinger, and if I like their interpreters I can put up with the other singers being slightly sub-par. This cast tllts the other way: I dont care for Fischer-D.'s light-voiced Sachs, although I can't say it lacks character (at least Sachs suits him better than Wotan), and Ligendza'a voice lacks purity and sweetness and fails to soar. The first thing I heard from this set was the quintet, and knowing the glorious way Grummer leads it on the Kempe recording (not to mention Elisabeth Schumann on the old recording of excerpts with Schorr) I was Immediately put off the Jochum by Ligendza's heavy, dark timbre and the slow vibrato that had me counting pulsations. A light Sachs and a heavy Eva is just topsy-turvy, and the quintet is one of the "low lights" of this recording. I do rather like Domingo, though, and Jochum conducts masterfully.
 
#10 ·
For some I know this is the peak of Wagner's achievement but I must confess that listening to or seeing it, I do think losing an hour would have been beneficial. But that is just opinion of course. I have two versions, both by Karajan. His first at Bayreuth is a classic with Eldermann as Sachs (Karajan coached him extensively) and the second from Dresden with Adam. Both are fine though for modern sound the second is the one to go for.

I also have it on DVD from the Met conducted by Levine. Very well sung expect that Ben Heppner looks more like Falstaff and Eva looks older than Pogner! The perils of HD!
 
#16 · (Edited)


There is a very good meister tucked away in this boxset, 53 MET Reiner a saturday radio broadcast with Schoffler (sachs) Hopf (walther) and Vicky DLA (eva), hard to avoid Hopf in early 1950s as he was the "go to" walther for recordings......

If you pair this up with 52 Knap Bayreuth with Edelmann (sachs) and Della Casa (eva) and/or 51 Karajan Bayreuth with Schwarzkopf (eva) and Edelmann you have your bases covered very well for this period.......:)

 
#17 · (Edited)
Let me see if I can list all my Meisters.................

Solti 1 Decca
Solti 2 Decca
Kubelik Arts
Knap '60 Myto
Barenboim Teldec
Sawallisch EMI
Varviso Phlips
Reiner '53 Sony
Karajan 2 EMI
Kempe EMI
Jochum DGG
Bohm '68 ORFEO

I think that's all of them.:)

Any challengers.:)
 
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#18 · (Edited)
Let me see if I can list all my Meisters.................

Solti 1 Decca
Solti 2 Decca
Kubelik Arts
Knap '60 Myto
Barenboim Teldec
Sawallisch EMI
Varviso Phlips
Reiner '53 Sony
Karajan 2 EMI
Kempe EMI
Jocum DGG
Bohm '68 ORFEO

I think that's all of them.:)

Any challengers.:)
That's a pretty good start :). But there are a few others that you should probably try to hear. Schoeffler was in better voice in 1943 with Abendroth, if you can find the Preiser recording. And there's an excellent recording from Vienna around 1980 or so with Janowitz, James King, and Karl Ridderbusch (as Sachs), Dohnanyi conducting:

Organism Font Line History Paper


Your biggest gap, though, is that you don't have a performance with Hotter as Sachs. He sang the role rarely (I think in only two productions). There's a 1949 performance conducted by Jochum, issued by Myto; unfortunately, it also features Annelies Küpper and Gunther Treptow. The other is a 1956 Bayreuth performane with Windgassen and Brouwenstijn, conducted by Cluytens. I have it on Music & Arts, but the sound isn't particularly good, compared to other Bayreuth broadcasts of the time.
 
#19 ·
I've often looked at that Dohnanyi.
How is the sound on that one?

PS I gave 2 to the library that I didn't list.
Keilberth with Otto Wiener, ugh Winer. Couldn't take him.
Janowski on Pentatone. the packaging completely fell apart!!
and the the performance I didn't care for. Cold and swift.
 
#20 ·
I've often looked at that Dohnanyi.
How is the sound on that one?
The sound is excellent - stereo, IIRC. I don't know if this is an option for you, but it's very cheap at https://broinc.com

PS I gave 2 to the library that I didn't list.
Keilberth with Otto Wiener, ugh Winer. Couldn't take him.
Janowski on Pentatone. the packaging completely fell apart!!
and the the performance I didn't care for. Cold and swift.
I certainly agree about the Keilberth, although Jess Thomas is a good Walther. I liked the Janowski better, though, mostly for the sonics, but the cast is pretty ordinary.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I am a complete newbie to Die Meister, apart from the prelude, but I am in love with the single Wahn, Wahn, from Terfel's Wagner.



It prompted me to read M. Owen Lee's Wagner and the Wonder of Art: An Introduction to Die Meistersinger. His explanation of the St. John Day Hymn in terms of Guido de Arezzo's "solfege" mnemonic and it's importance to Wagner as one of the foundations of the Western music tradition--I can't find the right words--made me a captivated fan of the entire work without having evening listened to and watched the work for the first time and then after having watched it and just only being able to pre-cognitively surround myself with it. The first and only performance of the entire piece that I have watched and listened to is the "Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg / Bernd Weikl, Siegfried Jerusalem, MariAnne Haggander, Hermann Prey, Graham Clark, Matthias Holle, Horst Stein, Bayreuth Opera 1984"

Having watched it I have several thoughts, ideas and many questions, but I think I'm too much of a newbie to post them here.
 
#26 ·
I am a complete newbie to Die Meister, apart from the prelude, but I am in love with the single Wahn, Wahn, from Terfel's Wagner.



It prompted me to read M. Owen Lee's Wagner and the Wonder of Art: An Introduction to Die Meistersinger. His explanation of the St. John Day Hymn in terms of Guido de Arezzo's "solfege" mnemonic and it's importance to Wagner as one of the foundations of the Western music tradition--I can't find the right words--made me a captivated fan of the entire work without having evening listened to and watched the work for the first time and then after having watched it and just only being able to pre-cognitively surround myself with it. The first and only performance of the entire piece that I have watched and listened to is the "Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg / Bernd Weikl, Siegfried Jerusalem, MariAnne Haggander, Hermann Prey, Graham Clark, Matthias Holle, Horst Stein, Bayreuth Opera 1984"

Having watched it I have several thoughts, ideas and many questions, but I think I'm too much of a newbie to post them here.
Don't be shy. Wagner lovers all remember fondly their own initiations and love Wagner newbies.
 
#33 ·
My mistake. It is Edelmann.
The item pictured. I hope its the right one.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Many thanks for the invitation to voice some of my ideas and questions re/ Die Meister; hopefully not too many of you will regret the offer. I have a LOT of ideas and questions and as I began to write about them for this post I had more and more difficulties trying to write about them.

1.To begin, one thing that I have learned from reading some of the Wagner's music posts is that there seems to be an (almost) endless number of meanings and depths of meaning in his music. So much so that a listener will never fully see or understand them all, at least on a cognitive level, and conversations on his or other great music are also potentially endless. It seems that great art is always MORE.

I get this sense of many depths of meaning in the "aria" Wahn, Wahn.... From reading Owen Lee, I am working with the understanding that the "Wahn" is irrationality and passion. Yes, I vaguely understand that Schopenhauer's Wille is lurking behind this but I strongly suspect Wagner had a much more positive outlook on life.

Wagner's use of this understanding of Wahn (and I do think Hans Sachs IS Wagner in his mind) as the fundamental cause of suffering and conflict in the world (The Problem of Evil) flows from an extremely life-affirming, wonderfully positive view of life!

Humanity/the collection of individuals working in their own unique ways can channel a fundamental force in nature and use it to produce the greatest works of art-at a national level (Germany in this case at one level of meaning) but also at the level of the individual person's own personal life (and probably multiple other levels that I have not identified yet).

2. The Wahn in terms of the "glowworm." There is something about the excerpt about the glowworm that jumps out at me in an "annoying" way. I cannot figure out why it annoys/challenges me so much. We are listening to this gorgeous, lush, "burgundy/evergreen" orchestration and profound ideas and all of sudden he is singing about a "glowworm" and the music becomes like the "irritating" child-like view of fireflies "dancing" around in a Disney movie--I think it's the interruption of this music that I prefer that is what jumps-out at me and probably the firefly music isn't as child-like as I think it is, whatever the case I KNOW that I am not-hearing this music correctly or Wagner has some understanding that is challenging me.

As I'm writing this I wonder if it also has something to do with this theme in Wagner's music of the world-weary vs. the child-like wonder of beauty; this "dichotomy" mentioned in a Parsifal thread. It involves the concept of the noble idiot or fool-I really do not understand this and I'm not sure if the fault is all mine-it sounds like hubris for me to even suggest this, but could Wagner have been unsure what exactly he understood by this dichotomy in person/world or could he have over-done the idea?--yes, off topic, but I can barely tolerate the character of Kundry.

3. I think this is also why I found the character of Eva challenging-or at least as she has been portrayed in the DG video of the 1984 Bayreuth production or by Annette Daschle in one of the met performances (and I DO enjoy Daschle's voice and performances with the Berlin Philharmonic).

In the opening scene Eva is as superficial as a puddle-unless I am missing or incorrectly interpreting something, regardless I am going to skip to Act III. There you have this incredibly wise, heroic, strong, compassionate man, with a voice to die for (the man of every woman's dreams!) who is faced with the epic, terrible struggle of whether to surrender something we wants so badly. This "something" is personified by/incarnated in a superficial twit. A "woman" that is creating this devastating dilemma for this man that she supposedly has loved in many wonderful and evolving different ways since childhood, but she acts as if this was some mundane conversation-not even to the depth of a "conversation". Her expression and actions utterly boggle my mind in this scene and I can't believe this is limited to one performance.

(I have just begun to wonder if I dislike Eva in part because I am jealous of her! :eek: What a terrible thought.)

Putting the jealousy thing back in the closet, it's not just Eva that boggles my mind in this scene, while she is singing, Sachs is also just hammering at the shoes as if nothing important is being said and going on inside of him! Sachs's goodness and depth IS being conveyed in what he is singing, but what was Wagner trying to say with these stage directions?!? Wagner would not have made such a drastic mistake, so I know my reaction is incorrect. Instead of moving on to a different performance that didn't involve the actions and costumes, etc.., yes, the one at the British Proms :), I just put the entire thing on a shelf until now and I've listend to Wahn, Wahn, frequently.

4. The last thing I will bring up here is Beckmesser as portrayed by Hermann Prey. Another member of TC had told me of her admiration of Prey, not with any explicit reference to a particular piece of music, but that positive opinion might have biased me a bit towards his character; as might have Owen Lee's positive interpretation of the character. I still CAN honestly say that in MY own opinion, I genuinely found him to be a very loveable character/person.

As of this moment, the idea that Wagner chose to create one of the main "villians" as a primarily good man, again, says to me that Wagner's view of the world/reality is positive and life-affirming. Individuals, humanity as a whole, and the world as a whole, are not fundamentally depraved or irredeemably broken. That belief is not at all new to me; what I find so EXCITING about it here is the idea that this belief can be pre-cognitively strengthened and integrated more fully in those of us who listen to this music because the music also works at a "subconscious" level. Listening to this work is character development even when you are not actively listening and yes, it is just a wonderful experience to listen to this music.

I am a LITTLE concerned that I projected TOO many of the beliefs I already hold onto this work, but maybe I haven't.

Thank you for this wonderful opportunity.
 
#36 ·
I re-read several parts of Owen Lee's Wagner and the Wonder of Art and I saw that I am wrong about the importance of Sach's hammering on the shoes (and several other things), so I am going to watch the Prom's performance today. Trying to put my thoughts into writing in this thread will be very helpful as I focus on more sections of the work. Many Thanks.
 
#37 · (Edited)
An interesting post, and some thought-provoking questions. Could you be more specific about your objections to Eva?

To me, she's a character in an impossible situation. In a society where young women are expected to be largely ornamental and submissive, and where she is put up as the prize in a frankly barbaric marriage contest, she struggles to exercise at least a degree of control over her destiny. She has fallen in love with a young knight, even as she comes to a painful recognition of the deep feelings she holds for an older man she has known all her life. Perhaps at times she can appear flighty and superficial, but this is the role she's always been expected to play, and the only way she's been able to influence the decisions of the men around her.

Some thoughts off the top of my head, anyway. :)
 
#38 · (Edited)
An interesting post, and some thought-provoking questions. Could you be more specific about your objections to Eva?

To me, she's a character in an impossible situation. In a society where young women are expected to be largely ornamental and submissive, and where she is put up as the prize in a frankly barbaric marriage contest, she struggles to exercise at least a degree of control over her destiny. She has fallen in love with a young knight, even as she comes to a painful recognition of the deep feelings she holds for an older man she has known all her life. Perhaps at times she can appear flighty and superficial, but this is the role she's always been expected to play, and the only way she's been able to influence the decisions of the men around her.

Some thoughts off the top of my head, anyway. :)
Thank you for your response, Amfortas. I have to say that talking with a member named Amfortas adds to my enjoyment of the discussion.

I just finished watching the 2010 British Proms concert performance and I have a completely different understanding of Eva. (For those of you not familiar with the performance Eva is performed my Amanda Roocroft; I don't recall ever having heard her sing before.) After several hours of watching I am going to have to let some of this just sit in my mind, but as of this moment I think Roocroft performs Eva as an intelligent young woman who who has depth of feeling, thought and character. I was very moved when she fully realizes and has compassion for Sach's situation, feelings, particularly his pain--it was a beautiful moment. It was a transformative moment in her life.

The first scene in this performance has so much more strength and depth than the other two performances I mentioned. Eva is not silly or flighty at all in this scene--she even shows her strength by an upraised flex of her arm--I was shocked at first to see her do it (I wonder if Roocroft watched the performances I did and refused to play Eva in that manner.) Anyway, you might think the gesture would be too much, but it really worked for me. She is a strong young woman.

When I first approached this work I knew it was from a time of arranged marriages, so that wasn't a problem for me; it was what was done and her father was not arranging the marriage for property or social standing; it was for the appreciation and love of great art. He did give her some degree of choice and in this performance his love and his personal regret for the situation were clearly conveyed by the performer. I faced and dealt with my anger and fury over that part of our past a long time ago.

After the Proms performance I see that I came to the 1984 Bayreuth production with the idea that both Hans and Eva already realized that their love had grown also to include romantic love, but the Terfel/Roocroft production very clearly and beautifully shows this development. It is so well done.

I no longer excessively fault Eva for taunting, or being utterly oblivious to another person's (i.e, Hans) feelings--there is a bit of that in the scene bwtn her and Hans on the Eve of St. John's Day (I mistakenly wrote in my post above that it was in Act III). This is where I have to say that the visual performance of that scene made all the difference for me. Unlike Bernd Weikl casually hammering away as if nothing important is being said or going on, there's Bryn Terfel expressing it with his whole body and Eva is a "whole" person interacting with him.

I know you asked me about Eva, Amfortas, but I have to say that I thought Terfel was a marvelous Hans Sachs. I thought I couldn't like that character any more than I already did. Besides liking the character himself, Terfel's actions, gestures, facial expressions, the expressiveness of his voice made the character so real and contemporary for me. Stephen Frye was the host of the production and he shared the following quote from one of the viewers about Terfel as Sachs:

He strides the stage like a gentle giant, oozing generosity, wisdom and masculine maturity.

I don't know if Wagner would throw me out of the theater for saying this, but I prefer the concert version to the staged version. All the men and the chorus in black (and Eva in a solid color) was visually more appealing to me, it conveyed more meaning to me, and I think it made the performers rely more on their voice and body. Again, I'm a newbie.

As for Beckmesser, I do not regret purchasing the DG 1984 Bayreuth DVD--Herman Prey was worth many times the cost.

As for my "difficulties" or the challenge of the "gloworm," in terms of the music next to none of that remains for me. Last night after I wrote my first post I went back and listened again and it was very beautiful and almost magical to me. As for the text, I'm still not sure what he intended to say.
 
#43 ·
Despite its shortcomings, I am not about to give up Solti 1 if for no other reason than Norman Bailey's great Sachs - Jose Van Dam in Solti 2 just does not appeal to me. I also rather enjoy the Met Video with James Morris, Karita Mattila and Ben Heppner.

P.S. Josefina - glad you like Herman Prey :)
 
#47 ·
Thank YOU, Becca, for recommending him. He plays such a loveable Beckmesser. A great singer and actor. :)

As to all these other recordings of Die Meister. I just can't imagine anyone performing the role better than Terfel. Did you watch the entire British Proms performance? I bet my right arm that you will love how Eva is portrayed in that performance!
 
#51 ·
Well...I think Friedrich Schorr is the gold standard against which all Sachs are measured. Hans Hermann Nissen is quite good, both of these from a million years ago. Thomas Stewart was a fine Sachsy & Bernd Weikl owned the role for a time. But if I could only take one it would be Schorr :)

I'm actually not a fan of Terfel in anything Wagner. I think its not right for him. That said, I'd much rather hear him as Sachs than as Wotan or the Dutchman.
 
#53 ·
Josefina, I'm admittedly over critical of Terfel. I can't even stand to watch his Met Wotan. I like his Wolfram though. Very beautiful. I think that's his lane. The declamatory, dramatic singing doesn't suit him imo. For that I want Hans Hotter, George London, Hermann Uhde, John Tomlinson etc
 
#54 · (Edited)
Thanks for the explanation, Bonetan. I only know excerpts from The Ring, although over the years I've collected a recording or two of each of the "operas," knowing that someday I would get to them. As for Tannhauser, I know the Overture but I seem to remember the Berlin Philharmonic doing some type of abbreviated suite--can't be sure on that. I suppose The Ring will be my next Wagner piece: might be a good Winter project--magical snow-covered world outside......
 
#56 · (Edited)
Maybe you aren't over critical of Terfel, Bonetan. Hans Sachs is a warm, good-hearted man; he's very much a human being and I mean that in the best sense of the word. I think he is a wonderful role model.

I could be totally wrong but I have his album Bad Boys and he looks like a huge teddy bear on the cover. ...He very well might just be too kind and too much of a terrible liar to play a disturbed, selfish, devious character. Isn't it the case that he refused never to perform the role of Don Giovanni ever again because Giovanni was a rapist?
 
#64 · (Edited)
Herr Doctor Woodduck since you are reading this thread would you give Bonetan and I a hint, just a hint, to the meaning(s) or importance of the number five in Die Meister?
Honestly, I have no idea whether the number 5 has any special meaning here. To my knowledge, Wagner attached no special significance to numbers, aside from the fact that he found the three-act form ideal for his musico-dramatic purposes. I'd also point out the ideal form for a mastersong is tripartite: as described by Sachs to Walther, it's written in what's known as "bar form": zwei Stollen und Abgesang - two stanzas and an "aftersong" of greater length. You'll note that Walther's "Prize Song" has this structure - but, wonder of wonders, so does the opera as a whole, with Act 3 being about as long as Acts 1 and 2 together. In Wagner's dramatic tribute to music, he sought to leave nothing musical unconsidered, and in every way possible to exhibit the sheer craft and joy of composing.
 
#62 ·
I don't know.... this could be too easy, and I'm not sure how to tie it into the story, but....

The Perfect Fifth!!!

The most fundamental interval after the octave!!!

All Western music (and according to Leonard Bernstein in this Harvard Lecture Series--Language) is built upon the Fifth

Now, how can we tie that into the "plot" or is that meaning enough?

This is so cool.
 
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