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Thread: Wagner on disc....Parsifal

  1. #76
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    But listen to his Verdi Otello and the Requiem and the Strauss Heldenleiben.
    his Verdi Requiem isn't slow.

  2. #77
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    his Verdi Requiem isn't slow.
    I used to have it on disc. Trust me, it is. As one reviewer put it:

    I came to the piece via Sir John Barbirolli’s 1970 recording for EMI-Warner; the LPs sounded marvellous – the soft bass-drum thuds in the Mors stupebit especially memorable – and soprano Montserrat Caballé is at her exquisite, softly floated best. As for the bass Ruggero Raimondi, he’s a powerful presence throughout. Alas, on CD it sounds too bright, and glorious John’s tempi now seem rather ponderous. What an initiation, though.

    My feelings. Great soloists and super playing. But pretty slow going.
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-28-2017 at 08:56.

  3. #78
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    But pretty slow going.
    Compared to what?

  4. #79
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    Compared to what?
    Other versions - Toscanini?

    87 minutes actually which is on the slow side.
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-28-2017 at 09:27.

  5. #80
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Other versions - Toscanini?

    87 minutes actually which is on the slow side.
    Barbirolli's version is a normal and unexceptional tempo. Many much slower over the years.
    Last edited by howlingfantods; Oct-28-2017 at 09:49.

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  7. #81
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    Barbirolli's version is a normal and unexceptional tempo. Many much slower over the years.

    Such as??????????

  8. #82
    Senior Member OperaChic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    But listen to his Verdi Otello and the Requiem and the Strauss Heldenleiben.
    Even if this is true, it doesn't strike me as persuasive evidence. Conductors may have different approaches to varying composers and pieces, and where they are slow in some repetoire they are swift in others. Think of Böhm's Mozart compared to his Wagner.
    Last edited by OperaChic; Oct-28-2017 at 11:18.

  9. #83
    Senior Member OperaChic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Such as??????????
    Reiner. Who is not exactly known for his plodding tempos.

  10. #84
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperaChic View Post
    Even if this is true, it doesn't strike me as persuasive evidence. Conductors may have different approaches to varying composers and pieces, and where they are slow in some repetoire they are fat in others. Think of Böhm's Mozart compared to his Wagner.
    I remember the critic Edward Greenfield writing about the Heldenleiben that "one of the features of Sir John's Indian summer of recording was its expansiveness." He then went on to say that this particular Heldenleiben was the most expansive on record. Having heard his Verdi Requiem I wondered how expansive his Mastersingers might be. Of course we don't know. It was just a remark. Not sure why people have to take it so seriously!

  11. #85
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperaChic View Post
    Reiner. Who is not exactly known for his plodding tempos.
    I know the initial reviews of Reiner's version remarked on the slow tempi!

    George Hall's accompanying notes contrast Reiner's reputation for "military precision" with his observation that this account of the Requiem is "not the most precise version on disc", and draws attention to just how much slower many of his tempi are compared to those indicated on the score by Verdi. To discuss this point further, it is worth setting out the full set of tempi (in beats per minute) as performed, followed by Verdi's metronome markings in brackets:

    Requiem aeternam Andante 36 (80) Te decet hymnus Poco piu 58 (88)
    Dies irae Allegro agitato 80 (84) Tuba mirum Allegro sostenuto 80 (88)
    Mors stupebit Molto meno mosso 56 (72) Quid sum miser Adagio 90 (100)
    Rex tremendae Adagio maestoso 52 (72) Confutatis Andante 70 (96)
    Lacrymosa Largo 50 (60)
    Offertio Andante mosso 40 (66)
    Sanctus & Osanna (fugue) Allegro 112 (112)
    Agnus Dei Andante 66 (84)
    Lux aeterna Allegro moderato 57 (88)
    Requiem aeternam Andante 43 (80)
    Libera me (fugue) Allegro 92 (116).
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-28-2017 at 11:23.

  12. #86
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I know the initial reviews of Reiner's version remarked on the slow tempi!
    Reiner's is pretty slow but it's much slower than Barbirolli. Barbirolli's isn't slow.

  13. #87
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    Reiner's is pretty slow but it's much slower than Barbirolli. Barbirolli's isn't slow.
    You already said that

  14. #88
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    You already said that
    ?? First time I mentioned Reiner.

    it's just a dumb joke with a factually wrong premise about Barbirolli going on some super slowdown in his later years that you apparently made based on hearing like 2 of his recordings. Just take the L and move on, Dave.
    Last edited by howlingfantods; Oct-28-2017 at 17:14.

  15. #89
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    ?? First time I mentioned Reiner.

    it's just a dumb joke with a factually wrong premise about Barbirolli going on some super slowdown in his later years that you apparently made based on hearing like 2 of his recordings. Just take the L and move on, Dave.
    I could say the same to you. Pot and kettle! I never said Barbirolli was some super slowdown. Just his requiem is slow which it is. I also mentioned the article in the Gramophone that mentioned Barbirolli's expansiveness during his last Indian summer of recording. Sorry, mate, that is fact!
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-28-2017 at 17:45.

  16. #90
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I could say the same to you. Pot and kettle!
    ... I never called you a name... I don't think you know what "pot and kettle" means.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I never said Barbirolli was some super slowdown.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Given how slow Barbirolli's speeds had become by then, I wonder how long Mastersingers would have lasted?


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Just his requiem is slow which it is.
    It isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    No I also mentioned the article in the Gramophone that mentioned Barbirolli's expansiveness during his last Indian summer of recording. Sorry, mate, that is fact!
    No one talks about "Barbirolli's Indian summer". Again, like Becca astutely noted, you seem to be mixing up Barbirolli with Klemperer.

    And the quote you cited didn't even say this was a trend for Barbirolli, just that he thought one recording, the Requiem was "ponderous", a pretty silly statement considering he goes on to praise other recordings that are basically the same tempos.

    Take the L, dude.
    Last edited by howlingfantods; Oct-28-2017 at 17:55.

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