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    Default Squential Motion

    Hello all, I have I peice im working on for my music theory class and I wanted to see if you can analyze it for me. There are a couple of chords the sont make since thoery wise because of the key signature im using, Im started with the peice in C#major, modulating to D#major Sequntially. There is no D#major key signature so i I transposed it to Ebmajor (enharmonic key of D#major a theorhetical key). Now Ive changed the score from C#major to Dbmajor (enharmonic key of C#major). The problem is on the viith degree im playing a minor7(m3 and so on) chord instead of a dimished chord so i dont know what roman numeral. I also have a E#maj7/Fmajor7 chord on m11 which is not in the key at all as well so what roman numeral would I put there??? Since these chords are not in the key signature some suggested it was in Abmajor, Modulating to Bbmajor which takes care of the vii chord, but still dose not take care of the Major7 chord in m11 and also has the peice ending on IV reather than one. If anyone can help me with this that would be great. I will post link to a recording of the peice (i made for the record) and the sheet music. Thank You.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdwThIpUgHM

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tAu...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/12G9...ew?usp=sharing

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Welcome Quintin. What kind of theory course is this for? Common practice (classical) harmony? Or theory of popular music?

    Anyway, there are a few mislabeled chords: Measure 5 is Bbm7 (with a brief suspension). Measure 20 is Cm7 (the F and A are suspensions).

    Overall, the first section, mm 1-14, is in Db — with a few wrinkles. In mm 1-5, Db is treated as the tonic (but suggesting the Lydian mode of Ab). Measures 6-10 seem to be in Ab, but this is overruled by the ii7, V7 progression in m. 14, which is what establishes the key as Db. The FM7 in measure 11 chord must be heard in relation to the vi7 chord in mm 12 and 14. If the E were flatted, it would be V7 of vi. As it stands, it is an idiosyncratic altered iii7 chord in Db.

    The second half is just a transposition up a whole step, with a different ending. The last two measures are vi7, V7, I in E-flat. The major seventh keeps it from sounding final. In jazz one would likely use a major 6 and or major 9 for the last chord. Which brings me back to the initial questions: What kind of theory is this supposed to be? If classical/common practice, then everything about the language and the progressions is in the wrong style. If it is pop/jazz theory, everything is fine — and it is a nice piece in that style.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-02-2017 at 00:56.

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    Hello Edward, this is Music theory 2 (Classical Harmony). The peice is in a classical style inpired by Swan Lake by Tchaikovsky an the use of an 1/8thnote fingerpicking pattern in 4/4 which allows for a melody line. I started of with something I was working on in E minor, but is sound too similar and I wanted something different. I started playing around the key of C#major using the same style but with the major7/minor7 jazz sounding pretty chords. I peiced sequence together an since a have too use two forms of modulation I choose sequential modulation. Also composing this i was thinking in C#major and choose to modulate to D#major (which has no key signiture and is a theoretical key). I style I was suppose to compose in was four part chorale, but I choose too do my peice solo and was given the ok to do a guitar solo peice. Obviosuly the harmony is more jazz/or pop as you say , but it is inspired by the classical guitar.
    So in my analysis(im not good at theory) I found so realtionships that are more coincidental than planned. First is the Cm7 and the Bbm7 chord I was thinking a iidim/vi kind of like a secondary leading tone chord because in the key of Bbminor the the C would be a iidim. But the C chord is not diminished so it cant be a ii/vi so i was thinking a viim7 or a iim7/vi. I also found relationship with of the FMaj7 to the Bbminor7 as you did, but in theory a iiim7 would be accetable because this is a minor chord I think it would be called an Fminor7 so altered it would bec called a III7, beacuse this is a maj7 .I was calling it a Vmaj7/vi but this is not acceptable beacuse its not a V/V7/ or a V9 those are the only acceptable chords. My told my teacher some of the chords an he said it was ok just to use a leadsheet, but then I started adding roman numeral and wondering how everything works out, mainly just the two chords not in the scale. I guess my last question is if you were to use roman numeral what would you use for those two chords the vii chord and the iii altered one you metioned III7. Also if i were in Abmajor(not knowing) how would the modulation to Dbmajor be explained and what type of modution would be occuring???? Thank you Edward

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    You're complicating things. Those descending progressions, like DbM7, Cm7, Bbm7, are just garden variety diatonic 7th chords: IV7-iii7-ii7.They fit very nicely into a key. The only strange vocabulary is the FM7 chord. But the progressions don't fit the classical style, especially not as Tchaikovsky used it. Learning sequential motion in the classical style tends to mean mastering circle-of-fifth relationships and sequences by thirds (by submediant and mediant relationships). Classical composers tended to avoid diatonic progressions that drop by seconds, like DbM7, Cm7, Bbm7. It is uncharacteristic of the style.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-02-2017 at 03:25.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
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    Yes but your saying that in the key of Ab its would be an V7-iii7-ii7 so from there how would I explain how it modulates to from that FM7)???(what type of modulation??Direct ect..)then to the key of Dbmajor Tonic, Then the sequential modulation to what you would say Bbmajor to the CM7 then to Ebmajor? If i can explain this I can get extra points I bet
    Last edited by QuintinPenola; Dec-02-2017 at 03:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuintinPenola View Post
    Yes but your saying that in the key of Ab its would be an V7-iii7-ii7 so from there how would I explain how it modulates to from that FM7)???(what type of modulation??Direct ect..)then to the key of Dbmajor Tonic, Then the sequential modulation to what you would say Bbmajor to the CM7 then to Ebmajor? If i can explain this I can get extra points I bet
    There is no modulation. That passage wavers between Db and Ab, using the Lydian mode of each, before it gets clearly to Db. Db is the tonic pitch in the first five measures and at the end. The FM7 is an altered iii chord alternating with vi7. In fact, there really isn't any modulation in the whole piece. To be sure, the key changes to Eb for the second half, but this is not any sort of traditional modulation. It just goes there without any preparation.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-02-2017 at 15:06.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    There is no modulation. That passage wavers between Db and Ab, using the Lydian mode of each, before it gets clearly to Db. Db is the tonic pitch in the first five measures and at the end. The FM7 is an altered iii chord alternating with vi7. In fact, there really isn't any modulation in the whole piece. To be sure, the key changes to Eb for the second half, but this is not any sort of traditional modulation. It just goes there without any preparation.
    Im not to sure how the passages wavers between Lydian mode or how the works, and a agree Dbmajor is tonic so the peice is in Dbmajor, But Measures 1-14 is clearly is what I entended and composed/arranged as a sequence. In mesures 14 I use th V7 chord as turnaround chord back to tonic, but instead of going back to Dbmajor I use the pickup notes from the beggining(and throughout the peice) to modulate to Ebmajor(planned). Those pickup notes are Eb and F and I play the the sequence over again but at the end I end te peice on I tonic. If you take a look the last 2 1/8 notes in each measure are pickup notes so and before those notes is the end of what I am saying in the melody. I have the form being a verese chorus from ABAB with A being a a' a'' and B being b b'. I also was thinking form while arranging this peice a a' a'' b ect. Thanks for your help I think i'll write the Roman Numeral for vii as viim7 and the iii chord as a III7 that is simple enough for anyone to understandForm.jpg.

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    Writing your analysis in Db won't work because the "real" key signature at the beginning is four flats. The piece doesn't start in Db major, it starts in the Lydian mode of Db, meaning the fourth degree, the G, is sharped for the first 13 measures. If one were writing Roman numerals, the analysis of the first half would look like this. One might want to write: "(Lydian mode of Db)" under the initial Ab in the anaylsis:

    Sequential Motion.png

    Obviously, I have left out the details, like the suspensions. They are non-harmonic tones in any case. There is no "vii7 chord" except in the Lydian mode of D-flat — and Roman numeral analysis does not adapt for music in the "church modes."

    By the way, your first measure should be written as a quarter note pick-up and not counted as a measure.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-03-2017 at 14:44.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

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    Intresting, Db lydian mode has 4 flats but the scale is Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, and C. So wouldnt the scale degrees still be C as the vii and Bb as the vi degree and Db is still One??? I am fimilar with the phrygian mode because I played Flamenco guitar and the Andalusian cadence (i use to play). Also in lydian mode is the vii degree suppose to be dimished, dose this still apply??? what about the vi?? I just changed the key signatures from Dbmajor to Abmajor (Dblydian mode) and Ebmajor to Bbmajor(Eblydian) and it sounds exactly the same, but tonic is still Dbmajor and Ebmajor. also in measures 5(or 4), cant that be written as a visus4. I thought a suspension was a serious of 3 notes the first 2 being the same and the second going up a step. sorry im not good with evaluating non-chord tones.
    Last edited by QuintinPenola; Dec-04-2017 at 02:07.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    One can't have a m7 chord on the 7th degree. That's a unicorn. Nonexistent. Ungrammatical. If one is using Roman numerals, the passage can only be IV7, iii7, ii7 in Ab. The reason the normal nomenclature is strained by your piece is because the descending progressions it uses would almost never be found in classical music or jazz (or rock, for that matter). Composers avoid them because they tend to sound weak.

    A suspension is a note held across a strong beat from a chord where it is consonant to one where it is dissonant. It must therefore resolve to a chord tone in the new harmony.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-04-2017 at 13:55.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

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    Ahhh yes but im in Dblydian mode so the 7th degree need not be dimnished. The 4th degree #4 is the diminishe chord in lydian mode. Also there is a toal of 7 chords in this peice (an example of sequential modulation) Dbmaj7,Cm7,Bbm7.Bbm7sus4,Bbm13,Fmaj7 and last Ab7, and since the peice modulate to Eblydian mode that would be a total of 14 chords. Also If I were in Abmajor the I would be ending on the four chord Dbmajor, so its not in abmajor.Remember I play an Ab7 in m14 so you would be forgeting the I7(if i were in Abmajor).If you take a look at m10 the interval the Bb and the G in th first chord would make it a vi13 or Bbm13. One of the most beautiful progression is a decending progression, the andalusian cadence i–VII–VI–V. This is the backbone to Flamenco music and used in alot of popular music as well. Flamenco guitarist are renowned for playing fast decending scales over this progresion and the Phyrigian mode is a very important part of Flamenco. Also that Fmaj7 is tricky because im lydian mode we have a iii(could be III sounds good). But there is a realtionship betwwen the Fmaj7 and the Bbm7. In b minor the V would be minor so is secondary fuction would be minor v7/vi, But there are other minor scales out there. In the harmonic minor scale the v is V a major chord, so of O played F7 right there it would be an V7/vi. Only if I werent playing a maj7 chord instead, . Thanks edward I learned enough

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuintinPenola View Post
    Ahhh yes but im in Dblydian mode so the 7th degree need not be dimnished. The 4th degree #4 is the diminishe chord in lydian mode. Also there is a toal of 7 chords in this peice (an example of sequential modulation) Dbmaj7,Cm7,Bbm7.Bbm7sus4,Bbm13,Fmaj7 and last Ab7, and since the peice modulate to Eblydian mode that would be a total of 14 chords. Also If I were in Abmajor the I would be ending on the four chord Dbmajor, so its not in abmajor.Remember I play an Ab7 in m14 so you would be forgeting the I7(if i were in Abmajor).If you take a look at m10 the interval the Bb and the G in th first chord would make it a vi13 or Bbm13. One of the most beautiful progression is a decending progression, the andalusian cadence i–VII–VI–V. This is the backbone to Flamenco music and used in alot of popular music as well. Flamenco guitarist are renowned for playing fast decending scales over this progresion and the Phyrigian mode is a very important part of Flamenco. Also that Fmaj7 is tricky because im lydian mode we have a iii(could be III sounds good). But there is a realtionship betwwen the Fmaj7 and the Bbm7. In b minor the V would be minor so is secondary fuction would be minor v7/vi, But there are other minor scales out there. In the harmonic minor scale the v is V a major chord, so of O played F7 right there it would be an V7/vi. Only if I werent playing a maj7 chord instead, . Thanks edward I learned enough
    What I've been trying to tell you is that your piece doesn't meet the basic requirements of the assignment as you described it. It does not contain a sequential progression at all and it doesn't use a sequential progression to modulate. What you are calling a modulation is not what your teacher wants. In classical theory a modulation is created by confirming a new tonic with its own dominant. Just sliding up from the dominant of Db to Eb is not what is required. But I'll leave it for your teacher to explain it to you.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-04-2017 at 19:27.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    What I've been trying to tell you is that your piece doesn't meet the basic requirements of the assignment as you described it. It does not contain a sequential progression at all and it doesn't use a sequential progression to modulate. What you are calling a modulation is not what your teacher wants. In classical theory a modulation is created by confirming a new tonic with its own dominant. Just sliding up from the dominant of Db to Eb is not what is required. But I'll leave it for your teacher to explain it to you.
    I think the progression dose not matter as much for music to modulate using a sequence and yes mesures 1-14 is a sequence. Instead of of playing the sequence over, I modulate to Eblydian mode off the pick notes in that mode. Heres a quote from wikipedia
    Sequential modulation
    "A passage in a given key ending in a cadence might be followed by the same passage transposed (up or down) to another key," this being known as sequential modulation. Although a sequence does not have to modulate, it is also possible to modulate by way of a sequence. A sequential modulation is also called rosalia. The sequential passage will begin in the home key, and may move either diatonically or chromatically. Harmonic function is generally disregarded in a sequence, or, at least, it is far less important than the sequential motion . For this reason, a sequence may end at a point that suggests a different tonality than the home key, and the composition may continue naturally in that key.
    Im looking for info on the III#7 but cant find any examples.
    Last edited by QuintinPenola; Dec-05-2017 at 02:38.

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