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Thread: Oh dear! - James Levine

  1. #46
    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triplets View Post
    In this kind of a climate, the McCarthy element can be quick to rise. Have you ever have a desire to smear someone, for whatever reason? Well, ruining their lives would be simple. Accuse them of impropriety at some remote point in their lives. And save the accusation for when it can do maximal Political or Personal damage. And enjoy watch the accused squirm as they try to "prove a negative"--prove that they didn't do something, when the standard has become to assume that they are guilty, just because someone says they are.
    Fair points, though the accusations against Levine appear to be more widespread--and persistent--than your scenario explains.
    Alan

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  3. #47
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    Unfortunately there are more similar cases:

    https://www.forumopera.com/breve/har...ses-protestent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triplets View Post
    I think that you are pretty unhinged.
    If I understand your rants correctly, you seem to think that there is a Right Wing Conspiracy to protect predators. In this country, however, the accusations have gone against members all over the Political Spectrum. Harvey Weinstein was a huge contributor to all of the right Liberal Causes. Anthony Weiner was married to Hiliary Clinton's Chief of Staff, as well as being a poster boy for Liberal Democratic Politicians. John Conyers is a Black Politician who at the age of 88 will probably be reelected
    by his constituents from both a jail cell and a cemetery. Leon Wieseltier is a bastion of intellectual old school Liberalism.
    Most of the Hollywood Personalities that have been accused routinely support Leftist Causes. The list goes on.
    Nancy Pelosi said that we should give Conyers a pass because of his eminence. Al Franken has Liberal Politicians tying themselves in knots to explain why his case differs from others. All of these people are more likely to oppose the Death Penalty, Climate Change, LGBT Awareness, and all the faults that you find with this country. And on the other side of the Spectrum, we have the Fox News People, Roy Moore...it cuts both ways.
    In this kind of a climate, the McCarthy element can be quick to rise. Have you ever have a desire to smear someone, for whatever reason? Well, ruining their lives would be simple. Accuse them of impropriety at some remote point in their lives. And save the accusation for when it can do maximal Political or Personal damage. And enjoy watch the accused squirm as they try to "prove a negative"--prove that they didn't do something, when the standard has become to assume that they are guilty, just because someone says they are.
    I personally have seen at least 3 cases where people where accused of wrong doing, and at great financial and personal expense, where able to clear themselves. In each case, it took years, and the Psychological toll on them was horrendous. Try Googling "Tawana Brawley" for one example of how a utterly baseless accusation can inspire a lynch mob mentality and ruin innocent lives.
    Yes, "Innocent until proven guilty" can be a tiresome burden for accusers to overcome. It is the only standard however that can be reasonably employed. Since you live in the Country that gave us Madame Defarge, and the rule of the mob
    Another reaction from someone who struggles to read what is written? I never even wrote that there is 'a right-wing conspiracy to protect predators'. I'm getting a bit tired of having to point out these misreadings, you really need to pay attention to what you are reading before jumping on the reply button.
    What I actually wrote about is people, generally aligned with the populist right, who are obsessed that there is a conspiracy of politically-correct, 'liberals', 'cultural marxists', feminists who are trying to witch-hunt people in power (particularly men) by smearing them with false allegations. So, in fact, the exact opposite of what you claim I wrote.

    I'm fully cognizant of the fact that people who have been accused recently come from all quarters, this doesn't in the least detract from the fact that the people in a flap about 'witch-hunts' come from a particular viewpoint. It wouldn't matter if the accused was Trotsky, they'd defend him because their only interest is the fantasy of oppression from the eternal politically correct. However, as you helpfully point out the accusations are not partisan, so they really need to be quiet.

    I've got something for you though. I've actually been accused of sexual manipulation by a dishonest woman. Not a police report, but a lie to her mother who did me the honour of believing me because she knew her daughter's behaviour. In no way does it make me think that there is an imbalance in favour of accusers. There are always going to be liars on both sides. The real issue under discussion is the scale of abuses of power involving sexual opportunism and predation and the poor legal repercussions.

    So, no, pal, you don't understand my 'rants'. As for you thinking me unhinged, I personally couldn't give a monkey's, though perhaps the admin might take a different view? I'm not one to go running to them with reports so perhaps it will be missed.

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    Senior Member Eramire156's Avatar
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    I quickly read some of the posts above, I'd like to point out that the investigation began last year, before the current climate. I find this just sad. I have many recordings conducted by Levine, I will still listen to them, but with knowledge of all this, James Levine is a wonderful musician, but if proven true a pathetic human being. But our focus should not not be on Levine but on the alleged victim(s).

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/04/a...met-opera.html
    Last edited by Eramire156; Dec-05-2017 at 02:32.

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    These things bring out strong emotions in people. When political facets become involved in otherwise non-political matters, we often spend our time defending ourselves and our views more than discussing the actual topic. I think we all care a lot, and that is for sure! This fact alone is commendable.
    It is true that James Levine had been under investigation before this current newsbreak began. It is also true that Levine had been questioned by police in the past about similar indiscretions. This story is still unfolding and will most likely become more toxic. I myself wish to comment no further. I feel for the many people who are effected by it.

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  10. #51
    Senior Member Seattleoperafan's Avatar
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    Default Levine and His Boys

    I've heard for around 25 years at least about Levine being a pederast, but I had heard he preferred African American youths. I think the new awareness of abuse has caused these stories to surface. I suspect some sopranos had great careers by holding the dirt over his head. I would have been positive he had made financial arrangements for many of his dallyances, but I am only speculating. I wonder how seriously this will impact the Met, which is struggling as is.
    Last edited by Seattleoperafan; Dec-05-2017 at 03:32.

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedin View Post
    I'm sorry, but while (if those allegations are true) what Levine would have done was disgusting, morally inexcusable and criminal: The abuse of power to have sexual relationships to young men does just not put him in the same league as Saddam Hussein (!) or the Nazis (!!) who committed mass murder and genocide. I'm saying this because I've read numerous comments on Facebook calling for Mr Levine to be shot ot hanged. What is wrong with those people???
    A bullet or a rope is a good start for child predators. If guilty, of course. Disappointed in Levine.

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    mountmccabe, you summed up the situation nicely. Sadly, money may have been a main driver of actions, or lack thereof, by Gelb and the Met BOD, first to sweep pervasive rumors under the rug for years and now, with Met survival in the balance, to cut Levine loose.

  14. #54
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bz3 View Post
    A bullet or a rope is a good start for child predators.
    Always discouraging to hear voices, swollen with righteous indignation, raised in support of crushing people with weaknesses unacceptable in our current fashion. If we were to look at history, and not so distant history at that, how many ropes would we need? I'm sure many of us can name some names, names of people whose music we enjoy without giving their sins too much thought. Sad that many are safely gone, beyond the reach of the retribution we would gladly mete out to them!


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    Senior Member Polyphemus's Avatar
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    Mathew Hopkins would have been an excelent investigator in these matters.

    Noli Illegitimi Carborundum

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    How can you prove that what happened 40 years ago, what not an agreement of some type between the guys? I understand it happened when Levine was 21. I wasn't much of a difference age wise. I am not trying to defend JL. But if there are no facts, only declarations....

  18. #57
    Sr. Moderator Taggart's Avatar
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    Some overly political posts (and the replies to them) have been removed.

    Please concentrate on the musical scene and avoid references to politics.

    Any political discussion should take place in the social groups.
    Music begins where words leave off. Music expresses the inexpressible.

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    Wasn't James Levine a marvellous conductor?

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  22. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrina View Post
    How can you prove that what happened 40 years ago, what not an agreement of some type between the guys? I understand it happened when Levine was 21. I wasn't much of a difference age wise. I am not trying to defend JL. But if there are no facts, only declarations....
    You understand incorrectly. Or, at the least, none of the four accusers are saying anything about Levine when he was 21, but you may be right, he may have been abusing children then, too.

    Three of the accusers talk about when Levine was 25, and for the other the abuse is alleged to start when Levine was 43 and the boy was 16.

    I would be shocked if these were the only incidents.

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    The "innocent until proven guilty" standard is meant to keep a person from going to jail (or the gallows). It doesn't necessarily entitle them to continue in their current position.

    Sort of fitting that his last performance was a Requiem.

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