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Thread: Oh dear! - James Levine

  1. #76
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    It seems, from newspaper reports liked to in this thread, that there will be no charges brought against Maestro Levine. For several reasons, including that the accuser was at the age of consent in Illinois when the whole affair started and there is no evidence of coercion. So, by all accounts (including the accuser's) this was a wholly consensual and legal gay relationship. If we were to boycott the world of classical music (including its composers) for that sort of thing, the industry would be depopulated.

    Of course there may be more to follow from the other accusations.
    Last edited by KenOC; Dec-09-2017 at 21:14.


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    Accuser first makes accusations and claims to have been uncomfortable, then later decides it was a consensual gay relationship.
    Nothing at all unusual about that.

    Here's one of the comments from the ABC news site:

    "I began seeing a 41-year-old man when I was 15, without really understanding I was really 'seeing' him," the alleged victim, now 48, said in a written statement to police. “It nearly destroyed my family and almost led me to suicide. I felt alone and afraid. He was trying to seduce me. I couldn’t see this. Now I can.”
    This doesn't explain how he tried to seduce him and if it was so innocent when he was younger what does he see that is not innocent now? I don't buy this. I think maybe this kid had some feelings for him when he was younger and this is what caused his family to be so called destroyed and almost caused him to commit suicide because they all realized he was gay and after almost 30 years he thinks it was this guys fault because he had feelings for him and he is coming at him. I think this guy needs counseling and should just come out of the closet and stop blaming other people for the way he is.
    What this clown fails to understand - even after quoting the obvious clue - is that a 15year-old boy (or even a 16 year-old boy) is not in the same place psychologically or sexually as a 40 year-old man. More importantly it is incumbent on the older person in a position of trust to maintain professionalism and to behave with all the decency he has been trusted to maintain.

    There is seemingly a large number of people who lack the ability to figure this out for themselves.

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  5. #78
    Senior Member Bellinilover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    Accuser first makes accusations and claims to have been uncomfortable, then later decides it was a consensual gay relationship.
    Nothing at all unusual about that.

    Here's one of the comments from the ABC news site:



    What this clown fails to understand - even after quoting the obvious clue - is that a 15year-old boy (or even a 16 year-old boy) is not in the same place psychologically or sexually as a 40 year-old man. More importantly it is incumbent on the older person in a position of trust to maintain professionalism and to behave with all the decency he has been trusted to maintain.

    There is seemingly a large number of people who lack the ability to figure this out for themselves.
    I like this comment from one of the "New York Times" articles. The man who made this comment seems to know something about law:

    "For those claiming the kid in question was old enough to make responsible decisions regarding sex, the only answer to that is PERHAPS. That is why judges have a great deal of leeway in statutory rape cases. Levine was in a position of power and celebrity, and had a great deal of money. This created a situation where a teenager might repeatedly do things they later regret...It is quite possible for a teenager to be cowed by the fame of a man like Levine, and certainly be drawn to the financial gifts. I can easily understand how he might consent repeatedly to something he would quickly regret and be plagued by later doubts and damage to his self esteem. And if Levine used his fame and money to manipulate the kid, and especially if he later used threats of revelation of the sex, this would certainly be abuse."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quacker View Post
    There have been decades upon decades of rumors and stories and now there are multiple accusers willing to comment on the matter. Innocent until guilty in a court of law for specific crimes, of course, but it would have to be the grandest of all conspiracies for him to be innocent of all of this. I'm sorry if this bit of reality is inconvenient for people who just want to lose themselves in the music, but that feeling of discomfort doesn't make it untrue.

    Proving things is something others then spreading rumours on the internet.

  8. #80
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegendesLicht View Post
    A modern witch hunt....
    Exactly, was thinking...Sort of ''satanic panic'' of modern era, mass hysteria, new ''red scare'' along with (anti)russian paranoia...With due respect to real victims...
    'Listen, Mister god!
    Isn't it boring
    to dip your puffy eyes,
    every day, into a jelly of clouds?'

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    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugg View Post
    Proving things is something others then spreading rumours on the internet.
    Sounds like some of these rumors preceded the internet.
    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamme View Post
    Exactly, was thinking...Sort of ''satanic panic'' of modern era, mass hysteria, new ''red scare'' along with (anti)russian paranoia...With due respect to real victims...
    You are confused. The difference with a "witch hunt" is that none of the people being hunted were 'witches' because the very idea of a 'witch' is fantasy.
    The issue under discussion in this thread is real. Since at least the fall of Jimmy Savile a large number of famous (and not so famous people) have received actual prison sentences for actual crimes, encompassing historical up to recent events.

    This is not 'witch hunting' it is severely delayed justice.

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  13. #83
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    ———-cancelled———
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Dec-14-2017 at 08:49.
    "That's all Folks!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    That some people have experienced actual punishment for engaging in under-age sex or exploitation does not justify it being bandied about with the assumption of presumed guilt by association for somebody else. I can only imagine what a few of the morally self-righteous have committed and not been found out about. Maybe it was cheating on their wives or their taxes, or cheating a friend out of money, or lusting after an under-aged teenager even if the person did nothing about it. But there’s always something hidden away, and God help them if they meet the same type of judgmental and merciless accusers who go off half-cocked because of insufficient evidence, with no proof of illegality in this instance, and are judged in kind. What the law does is introduce the possibility of doubt when it comes to one’s presumed guilt by the rabid moralists, rather than two people who were engaged in a mutually consenting and not unlawful relationship. In any event, I’m sure Mr. Levine will deeply reflect on his past and future behavior, and I look forward to hearing more of his outstanding Met broadcasts.
    You are proffering a flawed argument. If I say beating children is wrong, whilst I also beat children, it doesn't make what I say any less wrong; it merely makes me a hypocrite. Similarly, if I have committed any of the things you list without being caught, it still doesn't render my judgement (or prejudgement based upon what is known) of someone else's behaviour after being caught, any less valid. The course of the law has to be maintained in any case.

    The suggestion you make of a "mutually consenting relationship" is at best a form of naivety and at worst the same deliberate goalpost shifting employed elsewhere in this thread. Men in their 40s - in positions of influence and power - and 15 year-old boys very rarely (if ever) have "mutually consenting relationships". If you discover your own 15-16 year-old son or daughter is having a "mutually consenting relationship" with the school headmaster, are you okay with that? Will you calmly enumerate and consider the facts before looking askance at the entire episode?

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    Quote Originally Posted by amfortas View Post
    Sounds like some of these rumors preceded the internet.
    And we all are guilty by doing so.

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    Men in their 40s - in positions of influence and power - and 15 year-old boys very rarely (if ever) have "mutually consenting relationships". If you discover your own 15-16 year-old son or daughter is having a "mutually consenting relationship" with the school headmaster, are you okay with that?
    1. The younger man was 16, at an age to legally consent to a sexual relationship.

    2. Levine was not his "headmaster" or even scoutmaster; he had no such relationship with the younger man at all. To say he was in a "position of trust" is meaningless, except that the younger man may well have trusted him. In fact, I've seen nothing to suggest that Levine betrayed that trust.

    3. If my son, of legal age, was having a relationship with an older person (man or woman) I might well disapprove, but that would hardly be a new thing in the annals of humanity. At some point, at some age, you pay your nickel and you make your choice.
    Last edited by KenOC; Dec-14-2017 at 05:34.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    1. The younger man was 16, at an age to legally consent to a sexual relationship.

    2. Levine was not his "headmaster" or even scoutmaster; he had no such relationship with the younger man at all. To say he was in a "position of trust" is meaningless, except that the younger man may well have trusted him. In fact, I've seen nothing to suggest that Levine betrayed that trust.

    3. If my son, of legal age, was having a relationship with an older person (man or woman) I might well disapprove, but that would hardly be a new thing in the annals of humanity. At some point, at some age, you pay your nickel and you make your choice.
    Yes.

    Except I'm not totally sure that it's legal in the US for someone to have sex with a 16 year old of s/he's much older. I'm not an American, it's just something I've read and it may be false, there's something in the USA called statutory rape.

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    ......................
    Last edited by Mandryka; Dec-14-2017 at 13:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Yes.

    Except I'm not totally sure that it's legal in the US for someone to have sex with a 16 year old of s/he's much older. I'm not an American, it's just something I've read and it may be false, there's something in the USA called statutory rape.
    Statuory rape is sex with anyone under the age of consent, i.e. (usually) 16, whether it was consensual or not.

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    So are we clear that in the States, someone of 40 having sex with someone 16 years old is not breaking the law, assuming both were consenting?
    Last edited by Mandryka; Dec-14-2017 at 17:48.

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