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Thread: Oh dear! - James Levine

  1. #91
    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
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    At the risk of this thread becoming a discourse on law ... not exactly. Firstly these types of laws can and do vary in detail from state to state, there is no single federal law on the matter. Secondly there can be big questions about what exactly constitutes consenting, particularly when the older person has a real or potential position of power/authority. I am sure that there are lots more hazy areas around this and please realize that I am not a lawyer nor have any wish to be!

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    So are we clear that in the States, someone of 40 having sex with someone 16 years old is not breaking the law, assuming both were consenting?
    Depends on the state and whether the older person is a school teacher or someone else like that over the younger person.

  4. #93
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    An old chinese saying :

    " when love slips out of the window, the law enters through the other window" .

    Is there love if a middle aged man seeks the fysical comfort of a young boy?

    There can be a strong atracction that narrows the mind to make it possible to do what you like.
    Only ones own desire is there and the other is not.

  5. #94
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    You are confused. The difference with a "witch hunt" is that none of the people being hunted were 'witches' because the very idea of a 'witch' is fantasy.
    The issue under discussion in this thread is real. Since at least the fall of Jimmy Savile a large number of famous (and not so famous people) have received actual prison sentences for actual crimes, encompassing historical up to recent events.

    This is not 'witch hunting' it is severely delayed justice.
    Hmmm...But judging by the press frenzy there is no famous celebrity without these ''skeletons in the closet''...Somehow i find that hard to believe...
    'Listen, Mister god!
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  6. #95
    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamme View Post
    Hmmm...But judging by the press frenzy there is no famous celebrity without these ''skeletons in the closet''...Somehow i find that hard to believe...
    You may find it hard to believe because no one is making that claim.
    Alan

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  8. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamme View Post
    Hmmm...But judging by the press frenzy there is no famous celebrity without these ''skeletons in the closet''...Somehow i find that hard to believe...
    Which bit? That there are no famous celebrities without skeletons in the closet, or that the press (you claim) thinks this?

    (Neither one is true).

  9. #97
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    I don't know about that particular state's law on 16 year olds, but I thought that Indian guy said he was 14 and Levine was in his 40s. It's been a week or so since I read the article and I don't feel like looking it up but that is illegal in every state and was in the 80s.

  10. #98
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bz3 View Post
    I don't know about that particular state's law on 16 year olds, but I thought that Indian guy said he was 14 and Levine was in his 40s. It's been a week or so since I read the article and I don't feel like looking it up but that is illegal in every state and was in the 80s.
    The young man whose charges were being investigated was 16 years old at the time of the first reported sexual contact, then the age of consent in Illinois. That state has since raised the age of consent to 17, or to 18 "in cases where the suspect is in a position of trust, authority or supervision in relation to the victim." But such changes are not retroactive. In any event, the statute of limitations has long since passed in that case.

    I don't know whether other accusations are being investigated, or whether the statute of limitations applies.
    Last edited by KenOC; Dec-15-2017 at 03:43.


  11. #99
    Senior Member Templeton's Avatar
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    'Out of darkness cometh light' - The Munich Philharmonic has now issued a statement but on a more uplifting note, read the lovely comments regarding Günter Wand that follow the article:

    http://slippedisc.com/2017/12/munich...lipped+Disc%29
    Last edited by Templeton; Dec-15-2017 at 12:10.

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  13. #100
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
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    I think the ''border'' for sexual misconduct and harassing is moving further down the line every year, even month! It goes to the point when even a ''dirty look'' could land you in jail...
    'Listen, Mister god!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    1. The younger man was 16, at an age to legally consent to a sexual relationship.
    You're having a laugh. Guess what, my neighbour's daughter is 16 too, so when I give her trumpet lessons and the 'mutual attraction' grows, her parents will have to just like it or lump it. That's about the size of it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    2. Levine was not his "headmaster" or even scoutmaster; he had no such relationship with the younger man at all. To say he was in a "position of trust" is meaningless, except that the younger man may well have trusted him. In fact, I've seen nothing to suggest that Levine betrayed that trust.
    Why are you claiming it is "meaningless" when you know that's not true? It seems to me that you must have trouble remembering what it was like to be under 20 and the position of the average young person against an established adult; let alone one with power and prestige.
    You keep wanting to portray this as some kind of consenting adults encounter, where the boy entered into it on equal grounds, but now wants to publicly shrug off what he later feels guilty about. It's a tired and discredited argument and the one used to justify wrongdoing of this sort. Assuming Levine did nothing illegal, only a complete idiot gets himself into a situation where it could be alleged. Thousands of schoolteachers and mentors inter alios, manage to keep a professional approach. If you don't, you betray the professional trust. You need to learn and accept this fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    3. If my son, of legal age, was having a relationship with an older person (man or woman) I might well disapprove, but that would hardly be a new thing in the annals of humanity. At some point, at some age, you pay your nickel and you make your choice.
    Easily said amigo. What has been going on for a very long time are sexual encounters that are very one-sided and lop-sided. Predatory opportunism cushioned by fear and by the entire issue perpetually being hushed up.

    If Levine had declared early on: 'Okay everyone, I'm a gay with a penchant for young men'. He wouldn't have been in the job very long and the deep irony is that the same people who would have disapproved of him are curiously enough the same people making shrill claims about "witch-hunts" once men like Levine come a cropper. Then all kinds of rubbish is wheeled out about 'ages of consent' and the boring circus about which U.S. state has what age or is backward enough for it to be in the low teens. I don't care about all that legal tripe because it obscures the reality of power relations.

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  16. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamme View Post
    I think the ''border'' for sexual misconduct and harassing is moving further down the line every year, even month! It goes to the point when even a ''dirty look'' could land you in jail...
    It doesn't.00000000000000

  17. #103
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    ...Then all kinds of rubbish is wheeled out about 'ages of consent' and the boring circus about which U.S. state has what age or is backward enough for it to be in the low teens. I don't care about all that legal tripe because it obscures the reality of power relations.
    The US is, of course, governed by laws, not by individual opinions...even yours. I like it that way. It seems to have worked out better than some alternative approaches tried elsewhere!
    Last edited by KenOC; Dec-15-2017 at 23:13.


  18. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    The US is, of course, governed by laws, not by individual opinions...even yours. I like it that way. It seems to have worked out better than some alternative approaches tried elsewhere!
    It isn't all about the law. Is it still legal to rape animals in parts of the US?

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  20. #105
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tulse View Post
    It isn't all about the law. Is it still legal to rape animals in parts of the US?
    Looks like currently bestiality is legal in five states, as it was formerly covered by sodomy laws that have been repealed. New laws in these states have been enacted or are in process and are likely to be effective next year.

    A group called Students of Objectivism for Rational Bestiality supports making sex with animals legal, but only if you own the animals (they're Libertarians of course). Given that some animal rights groups claim it should be illegal to own animals at all, things could get pretty deep pretty fast around here!
    Last edited by KenOC; Dec-16-2017 at 00:58.


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