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Thread: My experimental pieces and so forth thread

  1. #391
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Here is an updated version. I had too many off-scale notes in the other version. I'm pretty confident on the harmony. The orchestration is a different matter, but I did the best I could without reading books on it. I did this mainly for fun. I don't plan to continue on it.

    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  2. #392
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    BTW here is the score. Any comments on the orchestration is welcome. There are some parts where I sense a loss of clarity but not sure how to fix. I tried to freeze certain phrasing markings, but there may be some unecessary markings still showing.

    Attachment 143094

    Attachment 143095
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-15-2020 at 16:43.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  3. #393
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Here is a more presentable score. I tweaked the orchestration a bit from looking at a few more instances of how Mozart does it, and trying to apply his logic.



    For some reason it still attaches an older version after the updated score.
    score.png
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    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-16-2020 at 18:07.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  4. #394
    Junior Member TalkingPie's Avatar
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    The first 2 measures have some charm, but the rest is extremely messy. You have huge, basic mistakes in the harmony and I can barely make sense of anything. You don't even use cadences, which are the basic foundations of the classical style

    1) m.4: The unison between vln.2 and vlc+cb is a bit questionable (why not fill the harmony?), but the parallel 5ths with the violas are inexcusable. You're infringing repeatedly one of the top 3 rules of common-practise harmony.

    2) m.5: vln 2 plays a G while the rest plays an F#dim7 chord. Minor 9ths must be handled with extreme care, not like this.

    3) m.6. beat: cross relationship vln. 1 vs. vla and then parallel 8ves in two otherwise uncoupled parts

    4) m.6, beat 4: what does the dominant 7th of Bb major do here? You can't put a jazz Backdoor progression in a classical-era piece, and even if you thought so, the F7 should be preceded by ii, IV, or a suitable chord. That F7 chord only would make sense in the classical style if it was the augmented 6th chord of the key of A (the bass moving chromatically down to E). To summarize, why isn't this a D7 chord?

    5) m.8, beat 3 (or 4): The left hand probably needs a G major triad.

    6) m.9, the left hand arpeggios are extremely erratic, and even conradict the string harmonies sometimes. In general, there are very few functional harmonies, and some chords aren't even tertian. Mozart's arpeggios are very straightforward and clearly mark the bass of the chord.

    7) m.11, I don't know what chords do you want to put here, it makes no sense in terms of voice-leading and functionality, but you have an E-Eb cross relationship.

    8) What chord is m.6 beat 2? And why are no dissonances resolved?

    Bonus: m.3, 3rd beat: This screams to be a D7 chord, not this strange leading-tone chord. Also, horns in the classical period played the root of the dominant chord of the home key almost invariably.

    In retrospective, I may seem a bit brutal, sorry if that comes across this way, I didn't want to. Anyway, if you have doubts, I can share my harmony books from my stash. Cheers!

  5. #395
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks for your critique. No problem. I figured in terms of harmony it probably wouldn't fly in the Classical style. The goal was to cram as many Mozartian devices in as short a space as possible, and still keep it as structurally sound as possible. I was running out of bar space in #6, and didn't want to add another in making an odd number of bars, so I left some dissonnances unresolved in that bar, for the piano entry to clean up . i hear you on the piano left hand. I had some regular chord arpeggios at first, but it sounded a bit boring, so I improvised, but i agree it looks bad and assymetric. On the parallel fifths, I was using it as a power chord progression rather than contrapuntally, which I think is accepted, also Mozart did break the rules sometimes on that. On the cadence, it's a single theme, not necessarily a sonata form exposition come to think of it. The reason I attached the score was mainly for comments on orchestration (which I guess is tied into harmony in some way).

    I noticed I did omit a left hand pattern for the last bar of the piano. Here is an updated version. You may want to cover your ears (or eyes).

    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-19-2020 at 00:54.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  6. #396
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    I was thinking why not tweak a bit and have it more acceptable by Classical standards? I figured the ending to bar 6 and the left hand part would be most contentious, and was able to fix that up easily. Also changed the title. I still think the harmony even if not conventional, is one of those things the Masters were able to get away with. Brahms noticed a lot of parallel fifths in the Masters. I read somewhere as long as it doesn't sound hallow, which it usually does in counterpoint.



    It's attaching an older score again after the updated one.
    score.png
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    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-19-2020 at 13:54.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  7. #397
    Junior Member TalkingPie's Avatar
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    On the parallel fifths, I was using it as a power chord progression rather than contrapuntally, which I think is accepted
    No, this is not accepted. 2 consonant triads in rood position may move in parallel in extremely rare cases (between phrases, between Ger#6 and V, when the top voice is doing figurations), but not 3 or more. Whole theses have been written when Bach did it with 2 chords trying to understand why.

    Parallel, consonant triads in root position are inimical to the basics of common-practise harmony (unlike parallel 6/3 chords). Also, power chords have no 3rd (not this case), and they're also inimical to the style outside of rare, obvious folk references (not this case still).

    Occasional, "deliberate", unhidden aprallel 5ths don't appear until Liszt and Grieg, and don't become a stable feature until around Rachmaninoff's time (cf. 2nd piano trio).

    On the cadence, it's a single theme, not necessarily a sonata form exposition come to think of it.
    You do need some sort of strong cadence within a classical-era theme (in development sections it'd different), and even more if it's a period like this. I'm familiar with all 19 of Mozart's piano sonatas and I can't think of any one lacking a strong cadence in the first 13 measures (if so, I'd like an example to learn). Also, the model concerto you used has many.
    Last edited by TalkingPie; Sep-19-2020 at 19:48.

  8. #398
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    ^ As I understand, the parallel fifths rule doesn't apply when there is no intention of independence of voice. I believe the intent is to avoid a hollow sound in counterpoint (which I've heard before and recognize its sound). But anyway I used parallel fifths for 2 chords consecutively only. In the middle of bars 4 and 10 the intervals become 4ths on 3rd and 4th beats (it may be hard to see on the smaller print).

    In general this piece is really just an informal one. I only wanted to present part of an exposition and repeat with piano. I never had an intention of finishing it.
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-20-2020 at 04:05.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  9. #399
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Beating this one to death. But it's Mozart, so it deserves better. Took out some more questionable things. Also fixed the power chord (there weren't any in Mozart's time) by making it more contrapuntal so the harmony sounds more full.

    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-22-2020 at 14:11.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  10. #400
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Here is a cleaned up score. I can see some stuff Mozart wouldn't have done, mostly in handling non-chord tones differently (that I just can't resist). So it's more of a re-interpretation of how I hear his style. I was able to fool my relatives.

    score.png
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-24-2020 at 15:48.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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