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Thread: Mozart K593 Str Quintet

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josquin13 View Post
    I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?
    Yes, I've ripped the audio from the DVD so I can play it through my stereo. It's good to see they performed it together in concert rather than just coming together for the recording sessions -- there is a sense of responsive ensemble -- but I guess you're always going to have to work at making a team in this music because of the extra viola.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Mar-09-2018 at 21:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josquin13 View Post
    "But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities."

    You find the Orlando Quartet lacks refinement, in comparison to the Budapest Quartet? Having heard the Budapest play late Beethoven SQs in the 1950s, often "painfully out of tune & rhythmically out of sync", as critic James Leonard wrote, I would imagine it's the other way around. But I haven't heard their Mozart String Quintets from the 50s.

    I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?

    Here's a You Tube post of Ibragimova & co. performing Mozart's String Quintet in C major KV 515 at the Delft Music Festival, which is a favorite of mine:

    I dont tend to go by what critics say - preferring the evidence of my own ears. However - I don't know the Beethoven recordings so can't comment on those. I suspect the budapest qt recordings are disregarded by many listeners because they are mono.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josquin13 View Post
    "But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities."

    You find the Orlando Quartet lacks refinement, in comparison to the Budapest Quartet? Having heard the Budapest play late Beethoven SQs in the 1950s, often "painfully out of tune & rhythmically out of sync", as critic James Leonard wrote, I would imagine it's the other way around. But I haven't heard their Mozart String Quintets from the 50s.

    I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?

    Here's a You Tube post of Ibragimova & co. performing Mozart's String Quintet in C major KV 515 at the Delft Music Festival, which is a favorite of mine:

    It looks like we are going to have to disagree! I find Ibragmiovas sound lacks the projection of a high singing tone I think is necessary for this part.

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    My original set of the Mozart String Quintets was the Julliard SQ recordings made in 1967. I don't have the oiginal CDs but as far as I know the additional viola performer was Walter Trampler.

    I was not all that keen on some of those recordings as I thought the microphones were placed too close to the performers.

    Some two years ago I decided to acquire a further set and selected the Grumiaux Trio plus Arpad Gérecz (violin) & Max Lesueur (viola). This is better in my opinion, with a very clear sound and excellent performances. My favourite of the 6 string quintets is No 4, K 516, but K 593 (No 5) is good too.
    Last edited by Genoveva; Mar-10-2018 at 16:35.

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  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    It looks like we are going to have to disagree! I find Ibragmiovas sound lacks the projection of a high singing tone I think is necessary for this part.
    It's absolutely true that Emil Hauser sings forth like a he's the star in an opera! Whether this is "necessary for this part" I wouldn't like to say -- he certainly does grab your attention. I think the modern idea is that the parts are more equal in importance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    It's absolutely true that Emil Hauser sings forth like a he's the star in an opera! Whether this is "necessary for this part" I wouldn't like to say -- he certainly does grab your attention. I think the modern idea is that the parts are more equal in importance.
    Maybe its the recording - I do like Ibragimova - but her sound is subdued in this performance

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    Alina Ibragimova plays both period & modern violins, interchangeably, so she's very well attuned to 18th century conventions, and to the different characteristics & potentialities of the older violins, bows & strings--i.e., what Mozart would have expected to hear. Therefore, as always, it becomes a bit of a 'transcription' translating these earlier modes to modern violin methodology, bows, & strings. And no, I wouldn't have expected her to sound anything like (or 'project' to the same degree as) the first violinist of the Budapest Qt., whose approach is decidedly more late 'romantic' or Brahmsian sounding (than Ibragimova's). I expect it's quite deliberate on her part (although I've never heard her play Brahms...), as I don't think you could even pull that off on an 18th century violin, bow, & strings. Indeed, I would say their performance is decidedly HIP, yet on modern instruments.

    I did listen to the first movement of the Budapest Qt. recording (& plan to go back to hear the rest), and yes, it is better than their late Beethoven; yet, I still hear notes that sound out of tune to me. I don't see how that can be a subjective opinion (though yes, some listeners probably do allow for a greater leeway or margin of error than others), or how a critic like James Leonard, who describes the Budapest Qt. as "painfully out of tune" could be offering only a strictly subjective view (though granted he was speaking about the Budapest's 'live' Library of Congress recordings from the 1950s, which are wretched performances). Out of curiosity, I checked with my old notes of conversations I had long ago with a composer friend of mine (in the 1980s), who I expect would know, and found that he once told me the Budapest Quartet played on "out of tune instruments"... so, did they not tune their instruments properly? is that what I'm hearing. Hence, there must be some truth to what my ears are objecting to. Personally, it tends to distract my mind away from the music, & what I find good about the Budapest Qt.'s interpretations. Apparently others don't mind, & if so, I'm sure there's much to enjoy & value about these performances. They're just not for me.
    Last edited by Josquin13; Mar-12-2018 at 00:27.

  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josquin13 View Post
    Alina Ibragimova plays both period & modern violins, interchangeably, so she's very well attuned to 18th century conventions, and to the different characteristics & potentialities of the older violins, bows & strings--i.e., what Mozart would have expected to hear. Therefore, as always, it becomes a bit of a 'transcription' translating these earlier modes to modern violin methodology, bows, & strings. And no, I wouldn't have expected her to sound anything like (or 'project' to the same degree as) the first violinist of the Budapest Qt., whose approach is decidedly more late 'romantic' or Brahmsian sounding (than Ibragimova's). I expect it's quite deliberate on her part (although I've never heard her play Brahms...), as I don't think you could even pull that off on an 18th century violin, bow, & strings. Indeed, I would say their performance is decidedly HIP, yet on modern instruments.

    I did listen to the first movement of the Budapest Qt. recording (& plan to go back to hear the rest), and yes, it is better than their late Beethoven; yet, I still hear notes that sound out of tune to me. I don't see how that can be a subjective opinion (though yes, some listeners probably do allow for a greater leeway or margin of error than others), or how a critic like James Leonard, who describes the Budapest Qt. as "painfully out of tune" could be offering only a strictly subjective view (though granted he was speaking about the Budapest's 'live' Library of Congress recordings from the 1950s, which are wretched performances). Out of curiosity, I checked with my old notes of conversations I had long ago with a composer friend of mine (in the 1980s), who I expect would know, and found that he once told me the Budapest Quartet played on "out of tune instruments"... so, did they not tune their instruments properly? is that what I'm hearing. Hence, there must be some truth to what my ears are objecting to. Personally, it tends to distract my mind away from the music, & what I find good about the Budapest Qt.'s interpretations. Apparently others don't mind, & if so, I'm sure there's much to enjoy & value about these performances. They're just not for me.
    perhaps intonation does slip occasionally - but I still think it is masterful interpretation and beautiful, sound overall.
    I did find this review that perhaps sums up my view on the budpaest qt:

    https://www.allmusic.com/album/schub...s-mw0001866522
    Last edited by PlaySalieri; Mar-12-2018 at 07:02.

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    The Budapest Quartet started showing its age (or the ages of its members) after the very early 1950s. You can easily hear the intonation problems in their final stereo recordings of the Beethoven quartets when compared with their mono recordings of a few years prior. Their Wiki entry has some material on this, I seem to remember.


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    This one is worth hearing

    3610155249635_300.jpg

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  18. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    This one is worth hearing

    3610155249635_300.jpg
    Th recordings with Trampler on 2nd viola were made in 1957. Same recordings that I have found so attractive - they also did them in stereo in 1965 but I have not heard them. The ones with Katims are supposed to be the best - rec pre 1950.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    The ones with Katims are supposed to be the best - rec pre 1950.
    I've heard this said too, but the people who say it seem to be thinking of technique -- intonation and ensemble. Conception, and musicality, is, I think, very interesting in this later recording, and the sound is revealing, especially the balance of the sound.

    (similar things could be said of Richter, and maybe Arrau.)

    I'm not sure, by the way, what the date are of this one is.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Mar-12-2018 at 21:05.

  20. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I've heard this said too, but the people who say it seem to be thinking of technique -- intonation and ensemble. Conception, and musicality, is, I think, very interesting in this later recording, and the sound is revealing, especially the balance of the sound.

    (similar things could be said of Richter, and maybe Arrau.)

    I'm not sure, by the way, what the date are of this one is.
    I haven't heard the earlier recordings yet. The CD you show is the same perf I am listening to and was recorded in 1957 according to:

    https://www.discogs.com/artist/51714...String-Quartet

    the discog in wikipedia is incomplete.

    There were Beethoven quartets rec in the early 50s - and I would think these would be worth listening to - then some later stereo recs of Beethoven and Mozart in the mid 60s for columbia (US) which I think have attracted all the criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I haven't heard the earlier recordings yet. The CD you show is the same perf I am listening to and was recorded in 1957 according to:

    https://www.discogs.com/artist/51714...String-Quartet

    the discog in wikipedia is incomplete.

    There were Beethoven quartets rec in the early 50s - and I would think these would be worth listening to - then some later stereo recs of Beethoven and Mozart in the mid 60s for columbia (US) which I think have attracted all the criticism.
    I don't know if it might be of any use, but according to the wiki article on the Budapest String Quartet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_String_Quartet) it gives the following regards K 593:

    Mozart: String Quintet No. 5 in D major, K 593:

    with Milton Katims: rec 1946 [2V=EO]; CD reissue Sony SM3K-46527.
    with Walter Trampler: stereo rec 1965-1966 [2V=AS]; LP Col D3S-747; CD reissue Sony CSCR 8346.

    ...

    As I said earlier, the Grumiaux version is the best that I have.

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