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Thread: Does Classical Music Study Turn One Against Liberalism?

  1. #16
    dogen
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    When people talk about a liberal education I'm not sure they are thinking of the trivium and the quadrivium:

    "The Trivium: Grammar • Logic • Rhetoric
    The Quadrivium: Geometry • Arithmetic • Astronomy • Music"

    ???

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsMusica View Post
    Here is the syllabus from one of the best (and very few) colleges in this country...
    Which country? Please remember this is an international forum.

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    Senior Member Nereffid's Avatar
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    The more I've listened to classical music - or, I should say, the more classical music I've listened to - the broader my tastes have become, and the less time I have for "golden age" thinking. It's clear to me that music has always been in a state of evolution, and that there's no single set of rules by which all music can be judged (and never has been). So one (the individual, and society as a whole) has to embrace the notion of diversity, even if one doesn't necessarily embrace all the diverse things within that notion. If this earns me the label of "post-modernist", or "liberal", or whatever, then so be it. I experience no "post-modern resentment", only joy.
    But equally clearly there are people who, the more classical music they've listened to, the more they become convinced that only a particular subset of it is of any worth, to them and by extension to society.

    As in music, so in life. But I don't think music makes one more liberal or more conservative; one's tastes in music and politics both reflect an underlying personality.
    Mahler, Glass, Beethoven, Vaughan Williams, Wolfe, Liszt, Reich, Bach, Nyman, Schubert

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogen View Post
    When people talk about a liberal education I'm not sure they are thinking of the trivium and the quadrivium:

    "The Trivium: Grammar • Logic • Rhetoric
    The Quadrivium: Geometry • Arithmetic • Astronomy • Music"

    ???

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education
    The Trivium and Quadrivium are mentioned on this page of the Thomas Aquinas College website:

    https://thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberati...-arts-sciences

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Which country? Please remember this is an international forum.
    My apologies: U.S.A.

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    This may be stretching things a bit, but I'm going to give it a try:

    Isn't it possible that classical music helps to make one more liberal, more progressive, more socially conscious and more responsible in how we treat people and care about people? Some of the most vibrant arts cultures are found in the European Union, with specific emphasis on northern European countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway. These are some of the most socialist countries in the world, and pretty much they all have thriving economies. Yes, taxes are very high, but the aim is to create greater equality while addressing critical needs of the people. This style of socialism truly values its entire citizenry, and as well, culture and the arts are robust. I would be so bold as to say that classical music imbues our spirits with a greater concern for our fellow human beings, environment, flora and fauna.

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    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic View Post
    Do you think that after knowing classical music, it tends to make a person less liberal and more moderate or conservative?

    As a moderate, I feel that liberalism, in the same way as communism, is slowly fading out. People like Jordan Peterson show how academia is turning against liberal ideas. I hold environmental views and championing the rights of the poor and working class, and most of my friends since my teen years could be called liberal. I don't like divisiveness around people where it need not be in the slightest way, and so I don't use political terms to talk about human beings. I don't think that the terms liberal and conservative are real world descriptions, much like the way some philosophers say that language cannot talk about metaphysical ideas accurately.

    So, not asking people to come out saying they are liberal or conservative just if the values that it takes to listen to and even play classical music has less of a chance in a liberal mindset than conservative.
    Certainly in the UK the universities are stuffed with liberal academics of left wing sympathies

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    Here is an article elucidating the difference between European and American styles of funding for the arts. Sadly, I believe the USA has an awful lot to learn from the Europeans, and I am perplexed by the Capitalist/Individualist/Ayn Randian approach my country has taken towards the arts:

    http://www.osborne-conant.org/arts_funding.htm

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  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Certainly in the UK the universities are stuffed with liberal academics of left wing sympathies
    Could you provide a reliable source for your assertion?

  13. #25
    dogen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    This may be stretching things a bit, but I'm going to give it a try:

    Isn't it possible that classical music helps to make one more liberal, more progressive, more socially conscious and more responsible in how we treat people and care about people? Some of the most vibrant arts cultures are found in the European Union, with specific emphasis on northern European countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway. These are some of the most socialist countries in the world, and pretty much they all have thriving economies. Yes, taxes are very high, but the aim is to create greater equality while addressing critical needs of the people. This style of socialism truly values its entire citizenry, and as well, culture and the arts are robust. I would be so bold as to say that classical music imbues our spirits with a greater concern for our fellow human beings, environment, flora and fauna.
    The Scandanavian countries, despite being under the yoke of oppressive left wing regimes are consistently rated as the happiest countries in the world.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/thes...the-world.html

    Perhaps these regimes employ comprehensive propaganda programmes?

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    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic View Post
    Do you think that after knowing classical music, it tends to make a person less liberal and more moderate or conservative? As a moderate, I feel that liberalism, in the same way as communism, is slowly fading out. People like Jordan Peterson show how academia is turning against liberal ideas. I hold environmental views and championing the rights of the poor and working class, and most of my friends since my teen years could be called liberal. I don't like divisiveness around people where it need not be in the slightest way, and so I don't use political terms to talk about human beings. I don't think that the terms liberal and conservative are real world descriptions, much like the way some philosophers say that language cannot talk about metaphysical ideas accurately. So, not asking people to come out saying they are liberal or conservative just if the values that it takes to listen to and even play classical music has less of a chance in a liberal mindset than conservative.
    To answer your question, I doubt there is any correlation between musical preferences and political attitudes or that listening to a specific genre can change your political orientation.

    I would be hard to categorize either as pure liberal or conservative, because I am ecclectic and sometimes lean towards liberalism and sometimes towards conservatism. I am not sure academia is turning against liberalism. I am in academia myself and view the American liberal academia with suspicion, especially the soft sciences and junk sciences such as gender studies, black studies etc. who contribute nothing to real science and are just political organizations for feminists and other professional victims. On the other hand I am an environmentalist, but disagree with Greenpeace etc. about nuclear energy, which is the cleanest form of energy we are able to produce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogen View Post
    The Scandanavian countries, despite being under the yoke of oppressive left wing regimes are consistently rated as the happiest countries in the world.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/thes...the-world.html

    Perhaps these regimes employ comprehensive propaganda programmes?
    What I see is that Finland the most conservative country in Scandinavia is the happiest.
    And left wing regimes. Finland have since forever been ruled by coalition governments going over the blocks. In Sweden the majority haven´t voted left since 2002.

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  19. #28
    dogen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloe View Post
    What I see is that Finland the most conservative country in Scandinavia is the happiest.
    And left wing regimes. Finland have since forever been ruled by coalition governments going over the blocks. In Sweden the majority haven´t voted left since 2002.
    I was taking my cue a little from Beet regarding "socialist", I don't see a lot of socialism in the world TBH. My tongue was somewhat in my cheek.

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    William Osborne stated the following from the article linked above:

    Germany’s public arts funding, for example, allows the country to have 23 times more full-time symphony orchestras per capita than the United States, and approximately 28 times more full-time opera houses. [1] In Europe, publicly funded cultural institutions are used to educate young people and this helps to maintain a high level of interest in the arts. In America, arts education faces constant cutbacks, which helps reduce interest.

    Aside from the previous discussions concerning liberal vs. conservative, why aren't we doing what Germany does in order to support the arts?

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    "God," asked Adam, "why did you make Eve so beautiful?"
    And He replied, "So that you could love her."
    "But God," asked Adam, "why did you make her so stupid?"
    And He replied, "So that she could love you."

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